Male-attracted lesbian better than being bi?

I think it's moot. Not really your business.

I'm bisexual, but am not attracted to trans people. Work that one out.

Yes, lesbian separatism would fall there. I get it, and I'm honestly of the mind that as a lesbian who was coerced into a heterosexual life, I'm in a sticky spot making hard and fast judgements on the choices other women make.

I was certainly naturally sexually and romantically oriented towards my own sex. But a woman's boundaries are her own, and if a woman who did not naturally have those feelings all along decides she has a boundary which excludes men, I won't be condemning her or pulling any hierarchy bullshit.

The problems arise, as we've seen, when a woman's rights to say no to men are attacked. I really don't personally give a shit if another woman wants to have sex with a man. None of my business. What is my business is that as a lesbian, breaking her way of the closet again in her mid forties, if a bisexual woman claims to be a lesbian, my firm no to any man becomes a point of negotiation.

Like the previous poster, I'm bisexual and generally find trans women too feminine for my taste. The lesbians I know who are or have been in relationships with trans women wouldn't call themselves bisexual because they are attracted to trans and cis women but not trans and cis men. They are lesbians in the same way that many women (straight or lesbian) will split up with a partner who comes out as trans, because they aren't attracted to their newly revealed gender.

No one should be interrogated over their theoretical adult sexual partners.

Very true, and yet we're subjected to it nonetheless. No wonder we've seen in an explosion in the variety of sexualities people are claiming; so many women are desperately seeking a label that says "Not interested in men being all male-socialised at me" that will be accepted and respected.

And that's a gift, not a curse, Floral

This is an interesting thread OP. I’ve heard some of the attitudes you mention.

To me this is the conflation of femaleness and femininity again.
It’s maybe less worrying about appearing ‘soiled’ and more about appearing right-on in their own social circles? Or, more charitably, about preserving their own self-image as inclusive and open-minded.
Lesbians admitting their own bisexuality in dating trans woman is clearly saying trans women are not really women, after all.

As an aside, I had a conversation with a friend who was surprised that as a bisexual woman, I would not continue to be attracted to my husband if he transitioned.
I said that I’m attracted to both male and female bodies, but that I am not sexually attracted to feminine presentation.
So it’s butch women and butch men, for me. I find some trans men attractive, but would want to avoid dating someone struggling with dysphoria, or who believed in an inner gender essence, in the same way that I wouldn’t date a very religious person.

That's putting it mildly!

I have the curse of English understatement.

@anotherhumanfemale Agreed. And women have rarely been able to just own their own sexuality without coercion or even without mansplainin'.

I also believe that while women's sexual orientation should not be harassed, it should also not be anyone's business. No one should be interrogated over their theoretical adult sexual partners. Who you want to sleep with is deeply personal, private and not subject to anyone's opinions.

Well, you can be same-sex oriented and still subject yourself to intimacy with the opposite sex for a variety of reasons, which can muddy these waters quite a bit.

That's putting it mildly!

I think a lot of the general conversation around sexuality (not here specifically) completely fails to take this into account. We're all assumed to be just the same as men except with different bodies, but the differing socialisation based on the body means men and women end up with very different experiences and expectations of the various labels and concepts.

RD and RM can bugger off with their "learn to cope" bollocks. I've been trying to do that since I was two years old; I'm now thirty five and I've had enough of it.

Bullying by TW seems endemic at the moment.

Excellent post, Michelle

And when I say 'expected' I mean the whole female socialisation wossname grooming us into putting our own sexual needs last.

Very much so.

It was a real eye opener listening to Riley Dennis and Rachel McKinnon as TW, informing lesbians that they could and should 'learn to cope with' sex with male bodied people as some form of social duty. The attitude towards female people this reveals is staggering.

Their main point: females finding a sexual experience unpleasant or unwanted must train themselves to co operate anyway for the sake of the male person. To act on or even consider their own feelings and needs is wrong.

This implies that females enjoying sex is very much secondary to their main purpose of meeting a male person's needs, if indeed female enjoyment of sex is relevant at all.

You will never find any mention at all of what the female is supposed to get out of the experience, or any hint of care or interest in the female's experience or feelings or needs to be met, or in fact any reciprocation or equal responsibility at all. The female is termed only ever as being a provider who must be careful not to be found failing.

The dehumanisation is quite frightening. #theservicehumansaremalfunctioning

Well, you can be same-sex oriented and still subject yourself to intimacy with the opposite sex for a variety of reasons, which can muddy these waters quite a bit.

Re women who self describe as lesbians while dating transwomen - I wonder if this is partially explained by them not being actively repulsed by male bodies.

From observation I'd say sexual orientation could be subdivided based on whether a person's actively repelled by the bodies their orientation excludes, or just 'meh' about them. If a woman's in the latter category then it's just another example of women being expected to get into sexual relationships with people we're not actively sexually attracted to. And when I say 'expected' I mean the whole female socialisation wossname grooming us into putting our own sexual needs last.

I'm guessing we don't have data on the overlap between 'lesbians who are actively repulsed by male bodies' and 'lesbians who have sexual relationships with transwomen' though, so this is just conjecture.

There's a lot of complicated internal politics and psychology at play with the bisexual/lesbian thing really. Bisexual women do get a raw deal with some assumptions about promiscuity, and threesomes and all that. Also there's an element of distrust as claiming to be bisexual can happen on the way to either coming out as lesbian or going completely the other way, and no one likes to feel they were someone's experiment. Conversely, having been in relationships with men doesn't cancel out bisexuality and there is all that odd stuff about being a 'gold star' where a lesbian hasn't ever been with a man and it's a badge of honour, which contributes to a weird hierarchy thing.

I think it's related to the kerfuffles about butch/femme presentation, and how, even in communities of predominantly women, the culture of blaming women is so ingrained that we can't seem to help ourselves.

Compulsory heterosexuality is a complete mindfuck, and those of us who are oriented towards other women face a lifetime of conflicting messages and conditioning that scorns the idea of being oriented to only women. The pushback against this seems harsh, but I suspect it's a lot to do with feeling extremely defensive in a world that just can't seem to accept that a woman never, ever has to centre a penis, not ever.

I’m a lesbian and I would not sleep with a transwoman that was still in possession of male genitalia. No judgement against those that would but I would consider them to be bi which is okay.

Biphobia isn’t as bad as it used to be in the lesbian community but there are some lesbians who wouldn’t date a bi female, never heard the comments you describe however.

So 21 posts and no one has mentioned porn yet? Isn’t there a category of porn, aimed at straight men, called “lesbian” porn? Is that Influencing the culture of what people think words mean?

I'm bi though I identified as a lesbian for my 20s, and I've experienced that from lesbians, it can be hurtful, but I understand where they are coming from. Some lesbians want nothing to do with men at all for different reasons, and having a partner who has been / will have sex with men just feels too intimate and close. We know what (some) men are like around lesbian sex, I had one male partner who kept pestering me to tell him about my sex with women so he could get off on it. I never did, but for lesbians the possibility that this may happen is always there. HIV was a big thing when I was younger too, with the risk less for lesbians, same for other STDs. Finally there's the worry that because it's much easier to have heterosexual relationships that bi women may have less buy-in to being lesbian, plus many lesbian have experienced "bisexual" women experimenting, coming onto them quite strongly then backing away just as quickly.

I bloody love Michelle.

I'd say I wouldn't date a transman. But I'd happily date Grayson Perry (his wife might object though!!) and actually if it was a transman who said "I'm biologically female but prefer to live as if male" that might work too.

But if it was someone who actually believed themselves to be male how could it work? You'd be in a relationship where you were effectively lying to them. It could only end in unhappiness.

Worrying about not being 'enough' for a partner is a fairly common issue irrespective of sexuality. Or is the feeling that bisexuality adds more 'complexity' to these feelings of inadequacy?

I suppose some could be of the opinion that bisexuals are not only playing for a team but covering the whole league - creating more concern for potential partners about ability to commit or be satisfied.

I have to say though I don’t agree with this perspective.
I believe that many people like to give women a hard time about many things and unfortunately I believe that lesbian women suffer significantly because of their sexuality and preference for women partners.

Rebranding pretty much nails it; it's political. Female type women calling themselves lesbians these days in a woke situation will be scolded as this implies not being inclusive with their body of male people, while male type women calling themselves lesbians are celebrated. In woke speech, a lesbian is a male type woman.

On the other hand, outside of that political and carefully corporate marketing for a specific agenda world, it's rather like saying you're a meat-inclusive vegan.

Many will describe themselves as “bi lesbians” but will use that interchangeably with just "lesbian".

I've never heard of the term "bi lesbians" before. What a bizarre oxymoron.

I agree there's been a lot of rebranding and propaganda in changing everything to 'queer women' instead of the usual framing of lesbian or bisexual women.
And the whole 'hearts not parts' that seems to have permeated bisexuality in this morally superior attitude.