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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

My daughter has started a relationship with a boy who thinks he is a girl, and my dad is calling herself a lesbian

211 replies

MothsAreSadButterflies · 15/09/2020 22:24

I can't talk to anyone about this . I feel like if I try to talk to my 17 yr daughter I will get schooled on my bigotry.

The transgirl looks and sounds like an 19yr old boy but with long hair, wearing 'girls' clothes.

I put that in quote marks because what does that mean, what are girl clothes? Who cares what people wear, pink is not for girls and blue for boys...hair should not be gendered. Be a boy who is androgynous or feminine ...I don't care. I fought all my life to get equality and to get away from the idea men and women have different minds, or stereotypical clothes or roles...now it seems someone can 'feel' like a girl, I mean what does that mean!? I'm so confused and upset. Saying you ARE a girl and now my daughter thinks and declares you are too and you are lesbians. If she was a lesbian I'm so fine with that. If he was a boy who didn't believe in gender stereotypes and wore make up and dresses I'm fine with that.. it's just this strangeness. They are not lesbians, it's an insult to real lesbians. He has a penis. She could get pregnant. How could two lesbians do that. I'm struggling to get past the idea that the biology is to be ignored.
Saying you are a woman is enough. But for all of our existence women have not been able to access any privilege. Saying we are men still wouldn't privilege us as transmen are not seen as equal to biological men.
And I feel sorry for this transgirl. I feel they must have deep-rooted issues to declare themselves a woman.

But they are not a woman and to say they are lesbians galls me.
It feels like double speak.

OP posts:
Quaagars · 17/09/2020 00:18

Why does it matter what she defines herself as in the couple?
Be supportive and be there for your daughter. That will speak volumes and go a long way
This - if your daughter's happy in her relationship, is it really your business?
You'll just end up pushing her away - her relationships, her sexuality, her preferences are really nothing to do with you.

bd67thSaysReinstateLangCleg · 17/09/2020 00:05

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FloralBunting · 16/09/2020 23:33

Fucking hell, I am so done with other people who claim to be lesbians disputing that to be a lesbian means to be same sex oriented. You have no clue how much you look like the open homophobes I have known in my life, from the religious ones who thought exorcism and prayer would fix me, or maybe even 'spiritual' intercourse, to the lads in the train station who were so angry I kissed my girlfriend goodbye they threw a few punches since the queer lezzer wanted to be a bloke so much.

Is it any wonder I went deep into ths closet for so long, and still find it so hard to come out when the 'community' is full of pandering shite that tells teen girls in heterosexual relationships that lesbian can mean person with cock? I'm nervous about coming out around religious people, and nowadays I'm nervous around coming out around avowed LGBT+ people, because it just all looks so damned similar.

Anyway, OP, you've had good advice about emphasising safer sex and not rising to the nonsense. Teens cosplay with other people's realities, and then they move on. Just keep being mum, keep communicating.

BunnyLovesBananas · 16/09/2020 23:23

Amusing typo in the title OP

I agree with what you say. I don't "get" being able to decide what gender you are and I hate that we are not allowed to say that in real life.

NonMumInterloper · 16/09/2020 23:10

I think perhaps the only thing you can try to do is to minimise the damage that she is doing to young lesbians in her circle - and there will be young lesbians around, although they will be less likely to be calling themselves lesbians. (If you are dating or have dated a male or are open to dating a male it is safe - even trendy - to call yourself a lesbian but if you are actually a female homosexual ie suspected 'transphobe/terf lesbian' or 'vagina fetishist' it is safer to call yourself queer to try to fly under the radar a bit).

Ask her if she thinks some girls are only attracted to other biological females and whether she thinks that it is natural and acceptable or is it a learned prejudice that needs to be overcome. I think parents have a tendency to think that woke self-identified queers are just overly liberal, nice, inclusive if naive young people but that is often not the case.

When I was growing up, there was a lot of bullying, saying we were disgusting perverts, that we just needed to try d**k to learn to like it but we knew who that was coming from. These days it comes from ostensibly progressive heterosexual and bisexual 'queers' - for whom the label 'lesbian' is becoming increasingly popular, but this shouldn't be confused with any liking for or even tolerance for female homosexuals.

Even if your daughter isn't actively pressuring lesbians to have sex with men, she will be used as an example of a 'good' lesbian and proof that lesbians can be attracted to males if they overcome their prejudices.

A older friend of mine last year went to an LGBT group for the first time in many years and, when she described herself as a lesbian, the other attendees - one transwoman and a group of in reality heterosexual or bisexual women (whatever they identified as) -really interrogated her on it, questioning why she hadn't had sex with men, calling her bigoted (not just for not sleeping with transwomen but also for not being open to sex with male-identified men) - just a constant stream of attack for much of the session, which the facilitator just allowed to continue. She said she had never experienced anything like this since the 80s (although obviously back then it wasn't from within gay circles) and just kept saying to me 'but this is what we fought against all these years ago' because it felt like we fought and won this battle back then.

I've had more exposure to this kind of stuff and, although I also remember the old days and what was known for all that time (same-sex attraction is natural and innate, a lesbian is a woman who is only attracted to other women etc), when you are just constantly being bombarded with messages from multiple people that sexuality is fluid, lesbians can be attracted to males (not just transwomen - they say lesbians can be attracted to male-identified men) etc it just gets overwhelming and you feel like you are starting to lose your grip on reality and are back where you were as a young isolated lesbian with nowhere to turn - only this time it's worse as it's not just a case of escaping to the big city and finding the gay community because this is what you are faced with.

I can't even imagine what it must be like to be a young lesbian growing up now who doesn't even have that basis in reality, who will be seeking community and advice from 'lesbians' who could be heterosexual or bisexual and view not being attracted to men as a flaw to be overcome. Even if she is able to start to identify the problem, she can't name it as lesbophobia because the other (heterosexual/bisexual) lesbians aren't experiencing it - or are the ones telling her she is wrong.

I know a lot of heterosexual and bi women will view this as a quirky, maybe embarrassing, phase they went through as a teen - as though it's a crap haircut or dodgy taste in music - and will walk away from it and settle down with a husband and kids but I know I still struggle with some of things I was subjected to as a young lesbian by my peers and, whatever perception people end up with of the LGB community once the queers have finished with it, we have to continue to live with it.

newsyoucanuse · 16/09/2020 19:55

Make
Sure she’s on contraception, if she wants to call herself a lesbian let her crack on with it. I’m a lesbian, I’m not offended or bothered by that. Maybe this girlfriend will decide to be a boy, may she will stay a trans girl permanently.
Who knows. The chances of your DD staying in their relationship at her age is low.
Maybe youR DD is actually questioning her sexuality and this is a step towards that.

CloudyVanilla · 16/09/2020 19:52

She's an adult, she knows her partner is trans and therefore still has a risk of pregnancy. I'm sure she will be fine. Her validating the identity of her partner who identifies as trans is her prerogative, I'm not really sure why it's a problem.

ItalianHat · 16/09/2020 19:45

Yes, I read about that. Funny how the place that catered to people with penises wasn't cancelled, put out of business, or harassed, threatened and protested against - no banging on the windows or letting off fireworks in the vicinity. Funny that ...

FannyCann · 16/09/2020 18:50

One said to me that he'd be fascinated to watch how the presence of a transman in a gay bath house (or the like) might play out,

I've seen some very frank discussions regarding this, indeed there was a case reported in the news and the people without penises were very upset to find their presence unwelcome. I won't link however, it'll only get deleted.

deepwatersolo · 16/09/2020 18:36

Well, I guess in your shoes I couldn't help musing in front of DD on how, obviously and luckily, DD is aware that her girlfriend can make her pregnant, and wondering, how future generations will get clued in, considering the terms 'girl' and 'boy' are now taken and mean something different than they meant when DD grew up. Will the new category be 'people with penises' and 'people with vaginas'? Will new words emerge to make this categorization? What interesting times we live in....

(Yes, this type of talk - on different issues - drives my DS crazy. But that is only fair, considering how much some of his opinions, the ones I dissect this way, annoy the hell out of me).

ItalianHat · 16/09/2020 17:27

I can't imagine gay men classifying her as such

I've had some very frank conversations with gay male friends about this. One said to me that he'd be fascinated to watch how the presence of a transman in a gay bath house (or the like) might play out, but that he, himself is interested in cock, and so not interested in transmen.

midgebabe · 16/09/2020 17:27

The problem with treating everyone in an individual basis is that sex based rights do not do that
They treat people as a member of a sex class

All equality law does this...identifies the class that has problems and makes adjustments for that class

That means a woman doesn't have to make any judgement about a man to determine if they would be happy to get changed in front of them.

Just how we would run changing rooms if every person had the right to chose and that someone else then looked at that individuals case to decide if that was acceptable !

Arthersleep · 16/09/2020 17:22

I like earth's advice though for women! How true!

Arthersleep · 16/09/2020 17:19

Joking aside though, I do get and understand the trans issue and I have no problem calling anyone whatever they wish to be referred to. And it's a very small minority so I don't feel threatened by it, nor feel that it undermines my rights as a woman. My only concern is that it has become rather trendy for teenagers to suddenly declare that they are trans and also, that a minority who are lobbying for rights are not only brushing people up the wrong way, but are hell-bent on drawing attention to themselves, whereas the trans people who I have met during my life simply wanted to slot in and go unnoticed. I appreciate that the media has stirred up a lot of anxiety over the issue and people have a tendency to imagine how scenarios might pan out, rather than waiting to see if and how they might actually be affected and then dealing with the issue. At the end of the day, it's just about treating every person on an individual basis and with a little sensitivity and kindness. My belief is that, if faced with a child genuinely confused by their sexuality or feeling trapped in their own body, most other parents would actually be quite kind or tolerant, regardless of whether they found it confusing or unsettling.

ItalianHat · 16/09/2020 17:17

Why not a lesbian? Why should that matter?

It matters because actual lesbians and indeed, many heterosexual women, are being bullied and harassed (and worse) for stating biological facts. And lesbians are being harassed by men who claim they are lesbians - my lesbian friends say it's almost impossible to meet in single-sex. lesbian-friendly places anymore, online or in person.

Lesbianism is same-sex attraction, not same gender.

The person in question "identifies as" a girl, and is a transwoman, not a woman. And there's nothing wrong with that, unless they hurt the OP's daughter, emotionally or psychologically.

2bazookas · 16/09/2020 17:15

@SapphosRock

I am shocked by the open lesbophobia on this thread, with people repeatedly implying it would be bad if the OP's dad was a lesbian.

I am a lesbian but I would not be impressed if my dad declared himself to be one.

If you need it spelling out, lesbians are female homosexuals and my dad is most definitely not female.

Surely if a man can be a woman with a dick, so can lesbians? If your dad decides to be a lesbian, so is your mother btw.
2bazookas · 16/09/2020 17:05

@Gncq

They're 17. It's all the rage.

There's basically no way to be shocking cool and edgy for them because their parents stole tattoos, tongue piercings, goth, grunge, bulemia/anorexia and music festivals.

They'll grow out of it.

It's just a matter of time before fashion comes full circle.

The next BIG THING for teenage rebels is going to be virginity, lovely manners, being a prefect, and getting a paper round.

BlueJava · 16/09/2020 17:04

I have 2 DS, both late teens. I'd not say anything, be accepting and friendly. The phase may pass if you don't focus on it. As long as they aren't harming people, both in the relationship of their own free will then I just think crack on. At least it's not drugs!

Arthersleep · 16/09/2020 17:02

@elfycat

😁

Arthersleep · 16/09/2020 17:02

Disappointed to hear about your Dad! That was the bit that I was really looking fwd to! 😉

SerenityNowwwww · 16/09/2020 16:51

Or what my mum used to say when we had (female) friends join us in holiday ‘if you need any tampons, I’ve stocked up in the bathroom’

elfycat · 16/09/2020 16:45

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SerenityNowwwww · 16/09/2020 16:42

It wasn’t that long ago that girls/young women would try to hide their lesbianism...

EarthSight · 16/09/2020 16:37

@ItalianHat

I am shocked by the open lesbophobia on this thread, with people repeatedly implying it would be bad if the OP's dad was a lesbian

I know @BlackForestCake - it's terrible, isn't it? Almost as if lesbians shouldn't have penises!

Lol....
EarthSight · 16/09/2020 16:36

Oh dear. The only thing you can do is accept them and be polite. You don't sound hateful at all. You sound worried for your daughter.

I would say the following advice is good for all women, especially young ones -

Don't get involved because you think someone is an injured bird, a misunderstood artist or is the eccentric one in the group that is rejected by society. It shouldn't be your job nurture someone, to sort out their issues, to make the word better or simpler for them - that's their parent's job. Don't be guilt tripped into doing sexual things you don't feel comfortable in doing. You're not mean, selfish, unsupportive or nasty. Don't give in to sulking, denials and bad atmospheres if you don't do what they want you to.

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