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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Janice Turner on safeguarding manages to name everyone succinctly in one column

204 replies

NotBadConsidering · 12/09/2020 07:44

Cuties, Exist Loudly, Stonewall, NSPCC, Bergdorf, Tatchell, MAP...

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/8c46aad6-f461-11ea-9de6-a6e4d4016fb7?shareToken=e196d311d52618102baf33fd9f6a2fbd

This is why she wins writing awards. Gets so much across in a short space (waves to Janice! 👋Flowers)

OP posts:
endofthelinefinally · 12/09/2020 17:32

DH does like his newspaper. About a year ago I said I would not have the Telegraph in the house and we swapped to the Times.

2Rebecca · 12/09/2020 17:25

I occasionally read the Telegraph but do think it's coverage of women is poor. I did subscribe to The Times online but unsubscribing was a nightmare and that has put me off subscribing to anything where you can't just tick a box online to unsubscribe. Unsubscribing should be as easy as subscribing to encourage people to do it. The Telegraph had a confusing array of subscriptions. I previously subscribed to The Economist and unsubscribing from that was easy. It started to feel like Remainer brainwashing though, I like more of a variety of opinions hence my Speccy subscription remains.

Melroses · 12/09/2020 17:00

@BovaryX

I previously had supported the Telegraph but cancelled recently as there seemed to be a change on how they discussed women's issues

Agreed. It's dire. Apparently it is up for sale. Its website is awful and its content is increasingly woeful. There is a market for right of centre/freedom of speech media with a diversity of views and coherent, intelligent discourse. I think that's why The Spectator is doing well. I think The Times is benefiting from an exodus of Guardian and Telegraph readers.

I read it a bit online when you were allowed to without the paywall and I was impressed with their content for the professional working woman. However, recently when their paywall was down following the XR action, it was rather disappointing.

I think that most people, even if they like a bit of comfort reading around their own world view, want good writing and good analysis of what is going on around them.

ErrolTheDragon · 12/09/2020 16:56

@MillyMollyFarmer

Maybe we need to start seeking out examples of films and TV shows with 'good' sex scenes - consensual, fun, no gratuitous nudity

I love that idea. Perhaps someone would start a thread and we could add films we see.

And include older people.

The glibly applied term 'sex positive' needs to have some simple algebra applied to it. If we make a reasonable definition of 'positive sex' as good sex between fully consenting adults, and unhappy, abusive and/or non consensual sex as negative then:

Positive about positive sex = positive
Negative about positive sex = generally negative, repressive.
Positive about negative sex = negative .
Negative about negative sex = positive - anti child sex abuse, rape etc.

MillyMollyFarmer · 12/09/2020 16:41

Maybe we need to start seeking out examples of films and TV shows with 'good' sex scenes - consensual, fun, no gratuitous nudity

I love that idea. Perhaps someone would start a thread and we could add films we see.

MillyMollyFarmer · 12/09/2020 16:40

I did have people explain to me that the rape was fine because she ends up loving her rapist husband.

The actor who played the rapist/husband, Jason Momoa, said in an interview once, ‘ yeah my job is great, I get to come to work and rape beautiful women all day’. It was years ago but it came up on social media last year I think and he apologised.

DurtySarf · 12/09/2020 16:22

Maybe we need to start seeking out examples of films and TV shows with 'good' sex scenes - consensual, fun, no gratuitous nudity (or at least, if there is nudity, it's balanced with both male and female characters shown, iyswim), between adults, etc. Thoughts?

Frankiegoes · 12/09/2020 15:52

There are so many rape scenes on TV and in film, and they say they are included as it’s a real life issue that needs to be covered. However, one of the biggest search topic on Pornhub is rape/forced sex, and many men like to watch it, not because of the ‘issues’, but because it obviously turns them on.

On the subject of Cuties, the main problem I can see is that young girls will watch the dance scene on TicTok/YouTube and copy it, not realising the message that the film was mean to portray. Just showing that sort of scene makes it more socially acceptable to girls.

Stripesgalore · 12/09/2020 15:43

Here’s an article about what they’re attempting to do to make sex scenes less exploitative. They discuss Emilia Clarke’s comments in it:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/entertainment-arts-51745702

Stripesgalore · 12/09/2020 15:39

I watched the first episode and thought it was such a horrific rape that I didn’t watch any further episodes.

I did have people explain to me that the rape was fine because she ends up loving her rapist husband.

Because we’re now back to having to explain that it’s not okay to say that women end up enjoying being raped. Because we’re back in 1970 apparently.

gardenbird48 · 12/09/2020 15:34

@Stripesgalore

Emilia Clarke was sexually exploited by Game of Thrones. She has spoken out about it.

It is gratuitous sexual violence.

I couldn’t watch Game of Thrones because if the horrible rape scenes (and stupid squelchy sound effects every time someone’s limb was chopped off) - I really don’t understand how so many people saw it as entertainment. There were sadistic scenes of sexual abuse - yet so many people enjoyed watching it Confused
OvaHere · 12/09/2020 15:30

@Tanith

I keep seeing that Tanya Compas is "award winning" and "multi award winning". Which awards has Tanya won?
She is on the British LGBT awards 2020. There might have been something from Vogue too (based on a quick search)

www.britishlgbtawards.com/just-eat-top-10-outstanding-contributors-to-lgbt-life-2020/

colouringindoors · 12/09/2020 15:29

Excellent article, she is such an amazing writer. I Really hope this is widely read.

Stripesgalore · 12/09/2020 15:24

Emilia Clarke was sexually exploited by Game of Thrones. She has spoken out about it.

It is gratuitous sexual violence.

FloralBunting · 12/09/2020 15:22

@MillyMollyFarmer

People want to see rape?"

Sadly, they do. Game of Thrones is the best example I can think of, the mass rape of this man’s daughters he regularly raped too, while Jon Snow, the father and others sat around a fire chatting was particularly horrific and I can’t imagine how people involved in the scene felt. The blonde dragon lady being raped by her husband she was forced to marry and then falling in love? The rape scene was a big moment in the episode too, horrible. They had explicit Male nudity, but not male rape scenes.

Oh, undoubtedly, and sickening it is too. But I just remembered the exchange because it was done in such a way that the person was effectively put in the position of saying they wanted to watch rape, which is quite an effective way of waking people up to what they unthinkingly accept.
Vargas · 12/09/2020 15:21

Janice Turner alone is worth every penny of my subscription to the Times.

MillyMollyFarmer · 12/09/2020 15:19

People want to see rape?"

Sadly, they do. Game of Thrones is the best example I can think of, the mass rape of this man’s daughters he regularly raped too, while Jon Snow, the father and others sat around a fire chatting was particularly horrific and I can’t imagine how people involved in the scene felt. The blonde dragon lady being raped by her husband she was forced to marry and then falling in love? The rape scene was a big moment in the episode too, horrible. They had explicit Male nudity, but not male rape scenes.

7Days · 12/09/2020 15:18

The best piece on Peter Tatchell I have read was on gript.ie. Can't link sorry but a Google will get it.
It's a right wing publication- too right form me, frankly - but that article is very clear and concise and lets the facts speak for themselves.

Tanith · 12/09/2020 15:15

I keep seeing that Tanya Compas is "award winning" and "multi award winning".
Which awards has Tanya won?

FloralBunting · 12/09/2020 15:11

I recall a conversation about rape scenes in which someone suggested that as they happen, we should see them, and a feminist compared them to scenes of person pooing because it happens and the pro-rape-scene person said "Ew, no one would want to see that!" which obviously left the glaring question "People want to see rape?"

BovaryX · 12/09/2020 15:10

I previously had supported the Telegraph but cancelled recently as there seemed to be a change on how they discussed women's issues

Agreed. It's dire. Apparently it is up for sale. Its website is awful and its content is increasingly woeful. There is a market for right of centre/freedom of speech media with a diversity of views and coherent, intelligent discourse. I think that's why The Spectator is doing well. I think The Times is benefiting from an exodus of Guardian and Telegraph readers.

Goosefoot · 12/09/2020 15:10

@xxyzz

Ie the criticisms being made are of pervy, exploitative adults, not of the children in the film who are the victims in this story.

Implying that those who object are criticising the children rather than those who exploit them is just outrageous.

I think this gets lost because people who are film critics, for example, are looking at it as if it's a book. Like Lolita, Or Death in Venice, or whatever, which include a sexualisation of some kind about a child, but doesn't directly present a real, sexualised child, because it's text. The story is clearly about what is going on with that.

If films were like that, you could take that kind of stand back literary approach, and you might well see someone criticising the sexualisation of the girls in the story as totally missing the point.

I actually don't think that rape scenes are necessarily the worst part of the way films sexualise women - in most cases there is at least some narrative reason for them, though showing them is typically unnecessary. Worse is simply the casual nudity and depictions of sex, they are basically eye candy, unrelated to the story, and they are increasingly ubiquitous.

xxyzz · 12/09/2020 14:59

Ie the criticisms being made are of pervy, exploitative adults, not of the children in the film who are the victims in this story.

Implying that those who object are criticising the children rather than those who exploit them is just outrageous.

Datun · 12/09/2020 14:59

And yes to rape scenes in general. It's really not 'entertaining', is it.

Datun · 12/09/2020 14:57

@SoManyActivities

Yeah I don't get it. If the whole film is supposed to be about criticising the sexualisation of kids then 'a provocative powder-keg for an age terrified of child sexuality' doesn't make any sense at all?!
It only makes sense from the point of view of someone who finds it all rather thrilling.

And he doesn't see it. He really does not see it.