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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Boys using girls toilets

55 replies

tarasharp · 11/09/2020 16:22

Hi I’d just like people’s opinions on whether they think this is wrong. My granddaughter who’s 15 was upset yesterday because of the new system at school whereby the toilets are mixed. Apparently because of the way they’re all split into groups it’s the only way they can all use a toilet closer to them. My dgd knew of the changes during the holidays and worried about it, she knew the boys would cause problems, which they have.

The problem yesterday was the fact. that a group of boys were upsetting the girls by banging on the doors, shouting rude comments, and basically loitering doing their best to cause mayhem. My dgd suffers from very heavy periods and hated the fact that boys were immediately outside her cubicle whilst she sorted herself out.

My dd phoned the school to complain because there was supposed to be an undertaking that these toilets were monitored during break time and they weren’t. Do you all think this is wrong, and if so, is there any solution? Thanks in advance.

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tarasharp · 14/09/2020 17:31

Thank you Charlie that is so helpful. Have sent that to dd, she’s probably sending email to head tomorrow.

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PopperUppleton · 14/09/2020 10:04

Fab post Charley

BriocheForBreakfast · 14/09/2020 09:04

Great post Charley! 👏🏻 Thank you!

OhHolyJesus · 14/09/2020 07:46

That's really useful Charley am saving that x

CharlieParley · 14/09/2020 02:40

Your DGD is lucky to have you and your DD to fight her corner!

Just wanted to add regarding possible repercussions - there is provision in the Equality Act (EqA) for protecting those who seek to assert their rights under the EqA. Part 2, Chapter 2 Section 27 Victimisation prohibits retaliating against someone who complains that their rights under the EqA have been breached.

As your granddaughter has the legal right to single-sex toilets, any complaint she might make that her rights under the EqA have been breached is protected under the Equality Act.

And her case is quite clear:

When you are in a public place like a school, the Equality Act applies. It protects everyone from unlawful discrimination.

What the school has done qualifies as "Prohibited conduct". In this case definitely indirect discrimination and potentially also harassment.

Indirect discrimination happens when a public body like your DGD's school puts in place a policy that has a worse impact on one group of people with a protected characteristic than a group without it.

Sex is a protected characteristic under the EqA. Girls have specific biological needs that boys do not have - they menstruate, boys do not. As you have explained in the case of your DGD, denying the girls single-sex toilets affects them far worse than the boys, because they are denied the privacy and dignity they need to deal with their periods.

There is also potentially a second breach of the Equality Act here in that the school has not only adopted a policy that much more negatively impacts the girls than the boys, but by making the toilets mixed-sex, it has potentially also enabled the harassment of the girls. Harassment is separate prohibited conduct from indirect discrimination and is governed under a separate paragraph of the Equality Act (Part 2, Chapter 2, Section 26).

You could argue that by making the toilets mixed-sex, the school has created a humiliating and hostile situation for the girls in doing nothing to stop the boys from directly harassing the girls and completely ignoring their right to dignity. And as per the EqA, it is only the perception of the girls that matters here, not what the school or the boys think.

Furthermore, the school is clearly in breach of its Public Sector Equality Duty, which obliges them not only to consider in detail how any policy change might affect those with different protected characteristics, but they must have evidence of having done so. So ask them for a copy of their Children's Rights Impact Assessment (CRIA) and a copy of their Equality Impact Assessment in regard to making the toilets mixed-sex.

The former considers the rights of children under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC) and the latter the rights of female students, disabled students, and students from culturally conservative ethnicities and religions to single-sex facilities under the Equality Act.

Hardly anyone ever bothers with a CRIA btw. But the local authority should have done one before implementing this change as it potentially breaches Article 39 (right to recover from abuse, incl sexual abuse), Article 28 (right to education, esp obligation to increase attendance and reduce drop out rates), Article 16 (right to privacy), Article 14 (right to belief and to exercise one's belief ie sex segregation in toilets), Article 12 (the child's right to have their views respected), Article 3 (the right for all children to have their best interests taken into account) and Article 2 (the right not to be discriminated against and to have their rights under the UNCRC respected).

So your outrage is well founded. This is a terrible solution to a terrible problem, and the school must find a better one.

EchoCardioGran · 13/09/2020 18:10

Good wishes tarasharp.

DeliciouslyFemale · 13/09/2020 17:21

You’re very welcome. Good luck and please let us know how it goes. Don’t give up at the first hurdle.

tarasharp · 13/09/2020 11:58

Im truly grateful for all this support and encouragement, thanks so much everyone. Smile

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Whatwouldscullydo · 13/09/2020 09:41

Good luck tara

Whatever you do do not let them make any of you doubt yourselves

They are breaking the law.
No one wants this no matter who told them what.

Its a problem entirely of their own making and none of the kids are under any obligation to make them feel good about whatever woke bollocks they are trying to use covid as an excuse to implement.

midclegs · 13/09/2020 09:32

Great to see the wonderful women if this board unite again.

@tarasharp not sure if you've seen this but there are some great resources on this page too.

womansplaceuk.org/mixed-sex-toilets-ins-chools/

DeliciouslyFemale · 13/09/2020 09:20

I’m glad your daughter is using the letter and I’m sure she’s very grateful for you doing the research for her. So will your granddaughter, eventually. Tell your granddaughter that by staying strong and supporting her mum in contacting the school, she is also helping the other girls who are younger or may be really upset/frightened but have no one to speak up for them.

tarasharp · 13/09/2020 09:16

My dd is happy with the letter and is going to use a lot of it and add bits of her own. I’m not sure who she spoke to when she phoned, it might have been head of year but she had a terrible attitude, making out my dgd and dd were making a big fuss over nothing. It amazes me that any woman could think it’s acceptable.

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Mummyoflittledragon · 13/09/2020 08:00

@tarasharp

DeliciouslyFemale I was thinking that, I think it would be better coming from her tbh. The only problem we have to overcome is dgd, she hates the idea of them knowing it all stems from her, in case of repercussions. I’m sure I can talk her round though.
There should not be any repercussions for your dgd. The school have to keep any correspondence about her completely private. Any sharing of information inappropriately would be a breach of data protection and anyone doing so would be in a lot of trouble. I am not in any way a specialist but my understanding from being on mumsnet for a fair while is that name shouldn’t even be mentioned when discussing the toilet issue in a wider circle.

Is this why her mum doesn’t want to write to the school?

BovaryX · 13/09/2020 07:50

OP,
It is staggering that anyone thinks the situation that you have described is remotely acceptable. It is appalling decisions made by adults who exhibit a total disregard for the well being of the teenage girls in their care. I agree with escalating this to the governor. Is there a local paper you can contact? You don't have to identify yourself, but one of the reasons this is happening is because a) people don't know it's happening b) people feel powerless to stop it. I honestly don't think this has any public support. Therefore local public exposure seems like a good move. It's indefensible.

crunchermuncher · 13/09/2020 07:40

DiggerDave it's because of the class/year group bubble system that schools have had to implement because of covid.

They are trying to keep groups of kids separate to facilitate social distancing, hence restrictions on who can use which toilet.

They don't have funds to hire portaloos, as suggested upthread, some schools are so underfunded that they rely on teachers providing stationery supplies out out their own pocket. They have to work with the facilities they've got. Maybe it would have been better to have female bubbles and male bubbles in order to facilitate toilet use - but what a can of worms that would be...

The toilets need to be better supervised, these incidents can't be allowed to happen that much is evident. But I think we risk undermining arguments for single sex spaces if we don't acknowledge what is driving these decisions in this instance . Solutions have to work in the real world. Covid shouldn't be an excuse for not protecting girls, but it is the reason that this policy change has been made at this school. There simply isn't a pot of spare money for extra toilets or for schools to somehow create extra rooms.

OP I hope you or your daughter have success with the school taking this seriously, this kind of harassment is unacceptable especially for young girls just getting used to managing menstruation.

DiggerDave · 13/09/2020 04:36

It sounds like the toilets are mixed so the boys aren't using the girls toilets as stated. They're using the unisex toilets they're supposed to.

I can't believe schools have fallen for this sort of thing though and created what are undoubtedly safeguarding issues just to pander to a tiny minority. It's not great for the boys either I'd imagine as there won't be any urinals and they'll have to wait for the girls who usually take longer in the loo.

Schoolsout2 · 12/09/2020 14:38

I agree your actual daughter needs to deal with it. I would not faff around with a call. I would request to see the head in person.

Weather your period is light or heavy id hate for the boys to be stood outside whilst needing to change Blush if I was a pupil at school.

tarasharp · 12/09/2020 14:28

Alaxandernevermind Yes it would be good to know what other mothers think, I don’t know any of them but dd will know a few. Trouble is you don’t really see other mums because the kids all tend to go to school without parents. I bet there’s more than me and Dd outraged though.

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tarasharp · 12/09/2020 14:23

DeliciouslyFemale I was thinking that, I think it would be better coming from her tbh. The only problem we have to overcome is dgd, she hates the idea of them knowing it all stems from her, in case of repercussions. I’m sure I can talk her round though.

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DeliciouslyFemale · 12/09/2020 13:18

tarasharp, I’m fully supportive of your endeavours to protect girls and wish you well, but would it be better if your daughter was willing to send that excellent email, as a concerned parent? I’m just worried that they will use the fact that you’re not the parent, to dismiss you. Though I suppose she could do that if they do ignore you or try to tell you that you have no say in the matter. Best of luck.

Alexandernevermind · 12/09/2020 12:27

What a horrible situation. You have some good suggestions here for ways to go forward. Is it worth talking to a few of the other mums or getting in touch with the governors. Covid cannot be used as an excuse to break the law or compromise your GD's safety and dignity.

tarasharp · 12/09/2020 12:22

Yes I will update if I get a response Mummyoflittledragon and yes crunchermuncher I’m definitely going to acknowledge the difficulties they’re facing because of covid.

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crunchermuncher · 12/09/2020 08:46

Your poor gd, that sounds awful. This is why women need our own spaces!

I hope you get a decent response.

Just to add to a previous comment about covid though, these ARE unprecedented times and schools are having a very tough time trying to keep pupils and staff safe with limited facilities to juggle. I can see why they've made the decision to have mixed loos (completely different scenario to just deciding that girls don't need their space). But they need to ensure the facilities are properly supervised to stop these kind of incidents. I would also be worried that schools will decide in future that mixed facilities were ok during covid so they may as well keep them.

OP you might get a better response if you acknowledge the efforts the school are making to try and reduce risks from covid - I expect all the staff are run ragged at the moment (absolutely doesn't excuse their failure to protect and support your gd though).

Good luck!

Mummyoflittledragon · 12/09/2020 07:59

Ok do update the thread if you get a response. I’d be very interested to see what the school say. Idk if certain rules and regs have been suspended in the wake of covid.

tarasharp · 11/09/2020 20:15

I’ll say who I am and hope that even if I’m not the mother they’ll be concerned that it’s been noted that the arrangements aren’t satisfactory, especially regarding the legal requirement that sinks should be within the cubicles, also the matter of sexual discrimination and harassment.

At the very least they should make sure the toilets are supervised. I wonder if they’ll be getting other complaints.

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