'We should have the right not to like men': the French writer at centre of literary storm

Ho-ho very funny. Lost on most here, I'd have thought.

Lost on me too - sorry, I can’t work out what you mean.
I wasn’t trying to hint at anything. I just meant that I talk to men when I’m at work because I have to if I want to keep my job. If I could get away with only talking to women I’d quite like that.

Hate sells and gets clicks in today's 'attention economy'.

I just want to live free of this. Not that women are magically fabulous, but just because I’ve absolutely reached my limit. And that’s without having experienced rape, assault, overt abuse... I’ve just lived with the comfortable obliviousness of well-meaning men for far too long.

Don’t worry. Digger Dave is a pbp, so he’ll be getting his arse kicked as we speak. Thanks MNHQ

@DiggerDave given how widespread rape, sexual violence, and domestic violence are I can well imagine where books and articles that have such provocative titles come from. They have a cathartic value for women who have been brutalised and for those who are justifiably angry about the status quo. They have value for that reason alone, as it creates a space for women to discuss and articulate the problem.

I am a man and have been reading and posting here for many years, and I have not once been made to feel personally responsible or attacked for the violence other men commit towards women. What is going on here isn’t actually the attack on men your are perceiving it as, it is something called class analysis. Which is simply an examination of patterns across groups of people. It’s pretty much inescapable that most violence is perpetrated by men so it therefore logically follows that it is worthwhile examining that group.

It is obviously an emotive and extremely depressing subject, but if I were you I would resist the urge to wade in with whattaboutery. Yes we men are violent towards one another, and yes things like male suicide are a big problem, and thus deserve their own discussions. It actually does both the topics a disservice to try to shoehorn them into a discussion about Male violence towards women rather than giving them the due attention they deserve in their own discussions. If you are really interested in contributing, and I hope that you are I’d spend some time here reading a bit before jumping in (there are a lot of very intelligent and articulate posters here!), but realise you are entering into a female space where a lot of women have experiences of being talked down to, ignored, told to calm down and just generally patronised by men. I’m afraid that’s just the landscape and whilst it’s not yours or even my fault specifically that’s just the landscape we have to contend with.

Feminism itself is a massive subject with whole doctorates worth of thought, analysis, data and research. Newsflash: there isn’t necessarily one feminist position on any given issue feminists can and often do disagree, it’s an incredibly broad church. It sounds very much like you have had a very reductionist experience of feminism, which isn’t necessarily reflective of the reality. Most feminists I know wouldn’t dream of looking down on your wife for example, in fact a lot would seek to support her in the choices she makes, whilst ensuring society itself is structured in such a way to mitigate the risks she is taking by being quite so reliant on your income. It sounds very much like you love your wife, and would support any career aspirations she might express. That sort of attitude puts you ahead of the game in some areas.

I don't see the problem, she's allowed to not like/trust men if she wants, perhaps best not to voice it too loudly. My DH doesn't trust women in general (other than family and a few friends), he doesn't make a song and dance about it he just goes about his life and limits contact.

I'd say our society is going too far the other way though. Look how many people lose their jobs through speaking out about genuine concerns and being called bigots etc.

I'm talking about individual men not tolerating or colluding with misogynist behaviour or talk among their friends, colleagues and male relatives. Not witch hunts where people lose their jobs for telling the truth or speaking out about concerns.

The frequency with which women still experience sexism and misogyny from men in their daily lives should make it very clear that your kind of "It's PC gorn mad, I tell you!" reaction is either woefully ignorant, naïve or disingenuous.

I'd support her in whatever she chooses, including the situation that she wanted to further her career - in that case I'd happily accept a greater share in some of the things she currently does to facilitate me working long late shifts etc.

Yeah my ex said that and we both believed it. When push came to shove at one point though and a real clash emerged, he refused to budge any further than suited his job. It was a conditional offer only.

Look how many people lose their jobs through speaking out about genuine concerns and being called bigots etc.

I agree with you in some part, Dave. But look how many women lose their jobs for speaking up about their rights. And consider that sex is the only 'protected characteristic' that isn't protected in new/proposed hate crime legislation. (Which I don't support at all, but isn't it interesting to consider why that is and what it tells us about society's attitude towards women and the acceptibility of misogyny compared to other prejudices.)

Feminists seem to portray their views as 'objective truth' but the vast majority of UK women actively disagree with feminist views. 75% believe in equality but only 7% want to be called feminists, so it's not that they don't want equality.

What survey are you working from with those percentages? When was it and how many women were surveyed, and under what circumstances?

There isn't a feminist political party with one group view, in fact there's many schools of feminism, what would you define as a feminist as a working definition? I'm not sure I would term myself as one. Interested in equality and the rights of women certainly. Radical in terms of belief around gender, certainly.

You never see signs saying 'beware of the cow' and it's not likely that bulls suffer from toxic masculinity.
Bulls can safely be kept with their cows and offspring. Its very rare for bulls to kill their cows. Same goes for horses, roosters, and boars. They are masculine without being toxic.
The 'toxic' part of toxic masculinity is the contempt and violence men show towards women.

Domestic violence costs the UK taxpayer over £66 billion a year. Its not a tiny fraction of men who are the problem.

If we're quoting suicide stats, women attempt suicide at the same rate as men but don't succeed as often because they use less violent methods. One third of them do so after surviving domestic violence.

Women aren't born being disgusted with male entitlement. It doesn't just pop into our heads one morning.

An extremely tiny minority of men murder and the rest of us can't really stop this

Are you suggesting that murder is the most common form of male violence? Or that it's the only level of male violence that people should be trying to stop?

If the only way men as an entire group can stop being demonised is by ensuring that every single one of us is non violent then I think we'll be waiting forever.

What, so it's all or nothing? If male violence can't be entirely wiped out, men shouldn't bother trying? Calling other men out for sexist behaviour, misogynist remarks etc is a start. The more 'decent men' keep quiet and don't rock the boat, the longer it will be seen as acceptable to treat women with contempt and violence.

As less then 10% of women are feminists (if that statistic I read on here is true) it signals to me that the vast majority of women perhaps don't want to step into the shoes of men.

1. Just because lots of women don't give themselves the label 'feminist', that doesn't mean they don't believe in equality. 2) What on earth makes you think that feminist equals 'stepping into the shoes of men'?

I would also add that France really is the home of the entitled arrogant man who thinks the world should bow down at his feet and most French women tolerate this and are socialised to accept it. I studied French in University and spent a year in France and even at that young age I knew it was not for me. My best friend lives there now and it has not improved in the intervening years.

So women shouldn't talk about (or draw attention to) the massively disproportionate and devastating impact of male violence because it makes men as a class feel bad?

Seriously?

I really don’t think about men other than the ones I am related to.

Me neither. I don't hate men, but I need to regularly remind myself how fortunate (and relatively unusual) I am for not having had personal reasons to hate them.

I believe men suffer the large majority of violence but can still see why women find us intimidating.

And those men suffer violence at the hands of men. Also, it would be interesting to know what proportion of male victims of violence are also or have also been perpetrators of violence.

My partner earns literally half of what I earn but we share our finances so her standard of living is equal to mine, well probably higher as she has much less job related stress and burden of being the provider. This is pretty much the typical situation worldwide from what I can see.

You don't have a lot of respect for your partner or for her life choices, do you? If you look around this very woman dominated forum, you'll see for yourself why women advise other women, strongly, don't get yourself into a position where you are financially dependent and have lost your own means to make your living, and you'll see too what happens to women when their partner moves on and feels entitled to take what he sees as 'his' money and assets with him. Because 'she did nothing'. Except save him huge financial amounts in house care and child care, take responsibilities in the home and family he never had to think of, and at the cost of her own career, but that wasn't on his radar so didn't really exist. Read a few threads too about the women who lived with financial abuse - I particularly liked the one with the man who used to bring expensive takeaways home and eat them in front of his wife and kids, who on the allowance he permitted, were (his wife worked out) eating on 17p per person, per meal.

Nice being female, isn't it?

As less then 10% of women are feminists (if that statistic I read on here is true) it signals to me that the vast majority of women perhaps don't want to step into the shoes of men.

Again you see women talking about rights as some kind of hostile takeover bid. It's like the comments in the papers when men say in response to women talking about women's issues "well this is what happens to silly girls who get out of their box" and want things like equal pay, and to be allowed to vote and own property and not be raped with less than a 1% prosecution rate.

No, women really don't want to be the men instead of you. Re read a bit more of what women are actually saying instead of what you think they are saying.

women don't really understand the realities of life as a man either.

As discussed in the article referenced on the philosophy thread: yes women do, because women have lived their entire lives in a system that is male dominated, reflects male needs, surrounded by advertising that reflects male perceptions of life, watching tv that is in massive majority created by men reflecting men's views and perceptions of life including their perception of female life and female characters - women are incredibly well educated on what life is like for men and seeing life through male eyes. The problem is that this narrative is portrayed as the objective truth, with many men unable to see that they only see women and women's lives through this male created view. And hence are baffled by women talking about aspects of life that aren't on their radar, don't affect them, haven't happened to them.

The issues of being male in our modern society - yes, they're huge, there's many issues there, but it's not a competition. It's not a zero sum game where one sex has to be the winner and the most important and the other sex has to accept their subordinate position. That's actually in itself very male thinking. You don't get the realities and issues for women we're talking about here - well listen, and talk to women about it and if you really want to find out about it and understand it then you have the chance to do so. Or you can join men's groups and look at supporting and awareness raising for those specific issues you're talking about for men.

Wanting women to shut up because it's making you uncomfortable and sounding as if you want them to just get back in their support human box..... odd choice to seek out a women centred, women's rights board to try saying that?

Christ it’s like listening to the midnight misogynist. 🙄