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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Virgin Active changing rooms segregated by gender identity

289 replies

EdgeOfACoin · 10/09/2020 12:50

Okay, I know this has been mentioned on passing on another thread, but I think it needs its own discussion.

Virgin Active have said that their changing rooms are segregated by gender identity and not by biological sex:

mobile.twitter.com/VirginActiveUK/status/1303378847711272961

I'm a VA member. This is something I would be prepared to cancel my membership over. Are they seriously saying that any male may access women-only communal changing rooms, where there are no individual cubicles, where women routinely queue for showers, provided he says he identifies as a woman?

This isn't about toilets. This isn't about who is 'peeing next to you' in the next cubicle. This is about women having to agree to undress in the presence of male-bodied strangers if they wish to use the facilities.

How is this even remotely defensible?

(I like the Twitter replies though.)

OP posts:
ThinEndoftheWedge · 14/09/2020 09:50

Nice

The YouGov polls - someone else will be able to provide a link - that when the question is explicit about adult males with fully intact genitalia (the vast majority of TW) using changing rooms with women and girls, the vast majority of people their customers- inc the under 25s (more likely to be woke) don’t think it is right.

Be clear that under the EA (10) exemptions you can legally discriminate on basis of sex as a proportionate aim - even if the person has a GRC because it would be based on discrimination of sex and not gender reassignment.

From Legal Feminist.org.uk:

There’s a comment on Audrey Ludwig’s “Blog about Boxes” that seems to me to need a short post of its own. The full comment is

Can I ask a question about something I’ve seen claimed many times (including by senior politicians) – “the law states that transwomen are women.” Does the law actually say this?
The short answer is no: the law doesn’t define the terms “transwoman” or “trans woman” at all.

The Gender Recognition Act 2004 does change some people’s legal sex. Obviously the law can’t change anyone’s biological sex. The fact that the law can’t mess with material reality is the point Canute was making when he forbade the tide to come in. But section 9 of the Gender Recognition Act 2004 has the effect that some trans women (i.e. the very small number who hold a GRC – only a few thousand to date) are deemed for most legal purposes to be women, although exceptions apply.

The Equality Act 2010 forbids discrimination (in various different contexts) on grounds of gender reassignment. That means that in those contexts where the Act has effect (employment, provision of public services, education etc.), it’s mostly unlawful to treat a person less favourably than you’d treat other people because they are proposing to undergo, are undergoing or have undergone “a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person’s sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.” If a person is somewhere on that path, it doesn’t matter whether they’ve got a GRC or not: they’re entitled anyway not to suffer discrimination on grounds of gender reassignment. There are some necessary exceptions, but in general it’s obviously right that there should be a legal prohibition against discrimination on this ground.

But it’s important to note that that doesn’t mean that trans women are entitled to be treated for all purposes as if they were biological women. If a trans woman who doesn’t have a GRC wants to access a female-only space, and is refused access, that’s not discrimination on grounds of gender reassignment, but discrimination on grounds of sex. She’s refused access not because she’s trans, but because she’s both legally and biologically male. That means she can lawfully be refused access any time it’s lawful at all to have a female-only space. In my view, it also means she almost certainly should be refused access in those circumstances. That’s because it’s only lawful at all to provide a single-sex space or service if there’s a good reason for sex segregation; but if trans women are admitted, it will cease to be a single-sex space.

If a trans woman who does have a GRC wants to access a female-only space or service, it’s still likely to be lawful to refuse, because of the exceptions that apply to prohibitions on discrimination on grounds of gender reassignment.

In short, the Equality Act does recognise that although sex is usually a bad and arbitrary reason for treating people differently, there are contexts in which biological sex matters.
Author Naomi CunninghamPosted on July 17, 2020Tags sex discrimination25 Comments

Other quick thoughts:

Are they at risk of being sued if an incident from mixed changing rooms happens on their premisises/bad press because you have already warned them that this is a risk to women and girls??

Will they make clear signage to all that the changing rooms are mixed sex- so women and girls can decide, not men. If it says women - then they are giving false information.

OneEpisode · 14/09/2020 09:50

DH used to take DD to Virgin Active whilst I was at work. They had to go in separate changing rooms which resulted in some shouting in the aftermath because dd would dawdle.
Now DH can walk into the ladies to check on her, much more convenient for my family! No ID needed, no problem.
Ours had a couple of nooks opening into the otherwise open plan changing area, and just glass screens on the showers.
DH is tall, solid, bearded so few female customers would challenge.

Norma27 · 14/09/2020 08:07

@NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace definitely good they are having a meeting with you.
I'm new to these boards so don't have much advice. Hopefully others will help with the relevant legal aspects etc
I definitely see lots of naked women in the changing rooms, and women doing hair and makeup in just their underwear.
The showers also don't lock and have gaps at the top and bottom.

NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace · 14/09/2020 07:17

And yes, here in God's Own Country some women do wander around naked in the changing rooms. I had a 20 minute in depth conversation with a woman about life in general and she was completely naked Shock

NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace · 14/09/2020 07:15

@Norma27

To be fair the manager at my club invited me to a personal meeting to speak about this, which I think is a step in the right direction. The meeting's on Wednesday morning – I'm taking a day's leave from work to do this – and I'll feedback after.

Any tips on what to ask him/what to point out to him would be appreciated.

Thanks everyone Smile

iguanadonna · 14/09/2020 06:59

On Scandinavian changing rooms - no, they're single sex. Anywhere naked is single sex unless with people you know. So saunas at swimming pools are in the single sex changing rooms. People have mixed sex saunas at home or with friends, but usually with towels over genitals at least when moving around.

There was some stunt with setting up a mixed sex changing room somewhere a few years ago which attracted a lot of press attention. Funnily enough I've since 'met' one of the women involved in a radical feminist group. Turned mixed sex changing rooms are a road to enlightenment on the differences between the sexes.

Norma27 · 14/09/2020 06:51

Has anybody heard back from VA yet? I know one pp has a meeting with them this week.
I have just emailed again and said I want a reply today.

SerenityNowwwww · 12/09/2020 15:28

So people saying that men and women should be cool stripping off in changing rooms and strutting their stuff... not all that many women do actually wander around starkers in any changing rooms or saunas I’ve been in (and I’ve asked - men don’t really either).

Who are all these naturists? It makes me think of films where men are killed up for imagining that all young women have sleepovers where they wear baby dolls and have pillow fights... the truth is pretty boring...

EdgeOfACoin · 12/09/2020 14:59

Where has this myth come from that the Scandinavians have mixed sex changing rooms everywhere?

I know, OldCrone! Frustratingly, I didn't combat that argument as I wasn't sure of my facts. However, last time I was in Sweden I'm pretty sure they had male and female toilets. Also in Iceland (not technically Scandinavia) there were separate changing rooms for men and women at the blue lagoon and secret lagoon. In Iceland they seemed quite pushy about the fact that they wanted everyone to shower completely naked before using the lagoons. However, the showers at the secret lagoon were communal but they weren't mixed-sex!

(And while some women happily stripped off, many didn't, preferring to shower in their swimsuits.)

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/09/2020 13:46

Incidentally you will never hear any of the 'just get over it' proponents suggest that the male people pursuing this policy should ever have to get over anything: they would be outraged at your insensitivity and ignorance in suggesting such a thing

YY

OldCrone · 12/09/2020 13:45

I did have a conversation with a guy at work once, who took the view that women should just stop being prudish and men and women should change together (apparently everyone in Scandinavia have no such 'hang ups'), but at least he was honest enough to argue in favour of mixed-sex changing rooms.

Where has this myth come from that the Scandinavians have mixed sex changing rooms everywhere?

This man became legally female in Denmark, where they have self-ID, then started using women's changing rooms. I've never been sure if this was just done as a stunt to show up the lunacy.

Current court case in Sweden where a transwoman has been prevented from using the female changing rooms at work.

www.twobirds.com/en/news/articles/2020/sweden/sweden-did-stockholm-hospital-sodersjukhuset-discriminate-against-a-transgender-person

MichelleofzeResistance · 12/09/2020 13:25

I've seen the comments about "stop being so prudish and get over yourselves" as well Edge

It's let them eat caking. The voice of someone so ignorant of the reality and diversity of female life and female experience that in their naiive world view it's that easy.

For the women these policies will exclude and most impact, most of them would be fucking thrilled if it was purely a choice they could make and something they could just choose to get over.

Incidentally you will never hear any of the 'just get over it' proponents suggest that the male people pursuing this policy should ever have to get over anything: they would be outraged at your insensitivity and ignorance in suggesting such a thing - making it clear that they are capable of understanding social barriers and the importance of feelings and wellbeing and safety and freedom of choice, but only and exclusively for males. There's no reciprocation or equality in their values or thinking.

Again, you're left wondering: has this basic cognitive dissonance not occurred to you? Are you aware but too uncomfortable to admit to yourself or anyone else that you're actually supporting a highly misogynistic, sexist, anti-woman agenda in the belief that females should be oppressed and allowed less rights and consideration because male people by virtue of their birth sex are of higher value and importance? Is it some distorted 'ends justify the means' view where you see female people as needing to be collateral damage in society to the greater good? How are you ethically investing in such an agenda?

I wish someone would explain this. But all I see, even in the MSM, is people trying to hide it and talk around it and pretend it's just not happening. And getting really cross when women keep insisting on talking about it and pointing out the problems.

Siameasy · 12/09/2020 13:06

My friend has family membership there cos the kids do swimming lessons. Her kids were pre school age when they started the lessons so you can imagine the implications...

NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace · 12/09/2020 13:03

On a more positive note, any hints and tips about how I should approach the meeting with my club manager next week would be hugely appreciated.

I'd like to stick to the legal issues as far as possible - I'm not sure how much he knows about the Equality Act and the law appertaining to this situation - and minimise my personal (highly emotive) feelings on the subject.

My aim is to speak for the women who disagree with this, rather than make it a NiceLegs rant about the patriarchy in general. If there's anything you'd like me to address, please let me know 🙂

I doubt I'll change the policy but I'm not going down without a fight 💪

NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace · 12/09/2020 12:53

@ErrolTheDragon

I'm sorry ☺️ I've just reread my post and it came across as though I we're trying to correct you, which wasn't the case at all. I was just venting my frustration at male people who 'just want to be like women'. I'm feeling battered by it all. Sorry again ☺️

Manderleyagain · 12/09/2020 11:51

I personally think that private companies should be able to do this if they want, but only if its very clear to the customers.

However I can't see how it's justified by the law at the moment. I would like to see it challenged tbh, so that the company has to put their justification (presumably they will say that to do otherwise will discriminate on gender reassignment), allowing others to argue the opposite (that doing this isn't justified by the EA and discriminates on sex, or religious belief because some female customers will be be able to use the service). I really want to see this all play out in court.

Maybe the judicial review of the ehrc guidence by Ann sinnott will do that in effect?

SunshineThelma · 12/09/2020 11:09

This is a really disappointing development. I've started to get back in the gym after lockdown and decided I really missed swimming, so was looking to switch to a VA (the local public pool is 20m of human soup whereas VA has a 25m, reportedly v.well maintained pool that's also closer to my house). I really don't want to have to change in the vicinity of male bodied strangers though, however they identify.

Norma27 · 12/09/2020 11:02

The VA I go to is very family orientated. There is a creche/softplay. Childrens' swimming lessons. A play area in the cafe. A separate children's swimming pool.
Children can use gym area from age 10 with patent. From 14 alone but parent has to be in building.
I do not want myself or girls exposed to men in our changing room. It is pretty much all communal so we can't even use cubicles for privacy.

EdgeOfACoin · 12/09/2020 10:53

I see no one who posted that they were fine with it has come back to explain what we do with the female people who aren't fine with it and can't use a gym changing room under these circumstances.

I find that people who are in favour of the idea always try to fudge the issues. For instance, Layla Moran in one interview kept going on about individual cubicles in swimming pool changing rooms and couldn't see what the problem was.

However, chain gyms such as VA or Fitness First* are not comparable to local swimming pools, as they are not targeted at families and do not need to provide family changing areas. VA is a gym aimed at adults (although teenagers may go from age 16 and from 14 if accompanied by an adult). I don't love communal changing areas, even single-sex ones, but I can just about live with single-sex ones.

With the current policy (it seems) the choices are very stark: either you are prepared to undress in the presence of males who identify as females, or you don't use the changing facilities. I haven't come across anyone on here who is willing to defend that.

I did have a conversation with a guy at work once, who took the view that women should just stop being prudish and men and women should change together (apparently everyone in Scandinavia have no such 'hang ups'), but at least he was honest enough to argue in favour of mixed-sex changing rooms. He didn't bother to argue in favour of changing areas being segregated on the basis of 'gender identity'.

I swear this is why TRAs like to keep the focus on toilets. It diverts people from thinking about things like changing rooms and hospitals.

*Disclaimer: I've no idea where Fitness First stand on this issue.

OP posts:
PronounssheRa · 12/09/2020 10:29

Michelle

We really need a like button.

It will never fail to shock me that women (and men who claim to be on the left) support policies that prioritise the feelings of men, however they identify or present, to the detriment of women's safety, dignity and ability to engage in public life. This impacts already marginalised women the most.

Norma27 · 12/09/2020 10:27

I'm still waiting to hear back. I have emailed my branch of VA and the generic info email.
I will drive down there Monday or Tuesday if I don't hear back. I froze my membership for now so haven't been there since lockdown.

MichelleofzeResistance · 12/09/2020 10:17

Women aren't being told the truth in order to make their own decision.

The whole approach is cloaked in shhh, by stealth, don't frighten the horses, this is openly shared by the political lobby as their chosen approach with explanation that because if it was open and honest the public would have the time and power to resist it.

The hope is that most women will put up, shut up and accept the disadvantages quietly, and in time will get used to women in the UK not having privacy, dignity or freedom at any time from males regardless of how vulnerable. And the women excluded by this policy are largely from vulnerable groups without much of a voice, or capacity to organise and make a fuss, and hopefully will just self exclude and vanish and no one will notice they've gone. After all, it's not like anyone cares about their protected characteristics and inclusion in society, is it? Or that words like 'inclusive' and 'kind' and 'intersectional' actually have any real value or meaning?

MichelleofzeResistance · 12/09/2020 10:13

I see no one who posted that they were fine with it has come back to explain what we do with the female people who aren't fine with it and can't use a gym changing room under these circumstances.

Always leaves me wondering if this hadn't occurred to them, or if they just really don't want to face the problems involved for women, or that they are aware they're supporting a policy that excludes some women from any access at all to public life in order to give men more choice and options, and are uncomfortable with admitting how utterly and appallingly sexist and unequal this is.

PronounssheRa · 12/09/2020 10:11

@feelingverylazytoday

To be quite honest, I wouldn't use any gym (or shop) that only has communal changing rooms. It's got to be either lockable cubicles, or curtain cubicles in a woman only area.
Neither would I. The problem with virgin is they pretend they have single sex changing rooms, when they are, in fact mixed.

Women aren't being told the truth in order to make their own decision.

SerenityNowwwww · 12/09/2020 10:06

But the showers have frosted glass (which isn’t completely opaque). No thanks! The swimming pool has open ones.

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