Virgin Active changing rooms segregated by gender identity

I will email back tomorrow once I have some suggestions from here.
Thank you @SerenityNowwwww

Ask them to define ‘gender identity’ and ‘sex’. Also who trains their safeguarding team. And if kids/youngsters are allowed in - at what age alone. And if their insurance company is aware.

Here is my head office reply.
No safety issues involved at all.
Doesn't think of privacy and dignity issues.

We are sorry if you feel we have not addressed your concerns about the safety of female members within our changing rooms. The health and safety of our members and staff is of utmost importance to us and is not the same topic as a transgender member wishing to use the changing rooms and other facilities which corresponds to their gender identity.

We work hard to ensure our clubs are a safe, friendly and a welcoming place to be for anyone.

All members and staff must commit to conducting themselves in a well-mannered fashion when on our premises. We do not tolerate anything that puts another’s safety at risk; disturbs the enjoyment, or, impairs the use of a club for other people.

Any breach of these objectives, by anyone, will lead to termination of membership or employment, as applicable. Our teams are trained in the prevention of risks identified to our members’ health and safety, all complaints we receive are dealt with quickly and firmly with our dedicated Safeguarding team at the forefront of any investigation.

Thanks @ErrolTheDragon

There's a thread on this, Norma - I'm sure it will be of interest to many.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4025528-Non-binary-people-are-now-protected-from-discrimination-under-the-UK-Equality-Act

Going off topic here, but I think this may have relevance.
An employment tribunal has found in favour of someone who worked initially as a man then wanted to identify as a woman.
To cut it short they basically claimed bullying/discrimination and problems accessing toilet facilities due to gender reassignment and sexual orientation.
The company claimed as they were gender fluid/non binary they did not fall under the definition of someone who had gender reassignment which is a protected characteristic under EA.
The article I read does not state if they found for harassment , accessing toilet facilities or both.
It actually doesn't mention if the person wanted to access female toilets, or if they felt harassed using the male toilets. If it was female toilets then I think it will impact on how companies now act.
I don't know how to do links, but the company is jaguar land rover and it will show up on BBC news or Google.

Downview prison in Surrey.

Some lovely MNetters went and protested by the road leading up to it when males were moved across the road from Highdown (Male estate).

There is a wing - attached to a womans prison. Wasn’t there a hooha because it was separate? Not about keeping safe from male prisoners then.

There should absolutely be safe, dignified provision for TW in prisons, and for other vulnerable LGBT+ males, no one should ever be forced to undress, change, use a toilet or sleep in a situation where they feel unsafe or humiliated. I just think that female humans are included in the everybody.

Perfect that.

There should absolutely be safe, dignified provision for TW in prisons

If there was, I highly suspect that suddenly so many male.prison inmates wouldn't decide they were TW all of a sudden, after a life lived as a man. No access to the female then, you see.

That’s what I say - you don’t have a dog in this race, these aren’t your rights that you are so happy to give away - what’s in it for you/what’s in it for me?

That other thread is really interesting edge. I had never really thought about how male doctors/psychiatrists etc thought our spaces were of no importance and just theirs to give away.

There should absolutely be safe, dignified provision for TW in prisons, and for other vulnerable LGBT+ males, no one should ever be forced to undress, change, use a toilet or sleep in a situation where they feel unsafe or humiliated. I just think that female humans are included in the everybody.

Two separate sets of needs. Male people should not be subjected to those unacceptable experiences- the fact that not all men treat vulnerable male people that way doesn't take away the harm done by those who do. Their presence in female facilities however would subject females to those unacceptable experiences - the fact not all of those females would mind doesn't take away the harm that would happen to those who do. Third spaces. Everyone's needs met.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-34869620

this was the general mental picture I had of a transwoman

I knew not that the majority kept their penis nor thought about them being sexually attracted to women, I guess in a way I saw them as a step further than an effeminate gay man.

I just didn't really think further than how their lives were affected

@SerenityNowwwww

Oh, I completely agree. I definitely feel better after the meeting than before and I do feel that the manager handled it really well.

But that doesn't mean that I'm happy or that anything is resolved.

I wouldn’t hold your breath. Didn’t Virgin Money sponsor a specific camp...?

Oops well done Nicelegs not Norma sorry..!

Well done @NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace
Let's hope head office start taking notice.
As I doubt I would get the great deal I had before though, it is very unlikely I will be going back there now.

Well done NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace 👏

However - someone sitting in their nice office with carefully worded platitudes is NOT the Saturday staff who would be subject to abuse, threats and accusations should they query a male person in the ladies.

How does this work with a gym like Pure that is more like a self service cafeteria (code to get in, few staff, open 24 hours)?

Amazing update Norma!

You are changing the world - BE the change you want to see.

From all the jizzing over the cubicle porn vids I've seen going around, to the Target unisex changing rooms sex assault increase stats, I would never use changing rooms a man would also use.

So .....

The meeting was cordial and convivial. The manager at my club is conversant with the law because he takes guidance from VA's legal department, rather than spouting rubbish. There was no mention of Stonewall or Mermaids type law, thank goodness.

VA's policy applies nationwide as I would expect. They don't allow random males into the female changing rooms; it's a case of 'assessing each case on its merit'.

We discussed protected characteristics and he was spot on about the fact that both 'sex' and 'gender reassignment' are protected; there was no clouding the issue with the use of 'gender identity'. He also acknowledged that these protected characteristics could cause clashes between different groups.

We discussed the needs of specific groups of women, for example Muslim women (I'm sure that other religions are affected too but I don't profess to be an expert) and how they would be marginalised by the inclusion of males in female spaces. He was definitely understanding and supportive of their needs and rights.

It is expected that anyone other than a biological female wishing to use the female changing space should discuss their requirements with the management prior to using that space so that an assessment can be made as to whether it's reasonable to allow them to do so. It's hard to police but that's the understanding at my club: males are not free to invade female space at will.

I did ask what would happen if I observed a male person changing with me and was uncomfortable about it. The manager was quite clear that the male person, rather than me, would be invited to an alternative space where they could feel comfortable while matters were resolved, ie discussed with the legal team. He understood that this may take time and would not permit the person access to the female changing space while discussions were ongoing.

He did admit that it was a minefield and said that, until we had a 'test case' (for need of a better word), it was difficult to predict outcomes.

My gut feeling about the manager at my club – bearing in mind that he was reasonably careful about his choice of words – is that he supports women's rights to single sex spaces. If he were pushed to make a choice I do believe that he'd come down on the side of women. And sanity. He knows what a woman is. Definitely.

I haven't changed the world here – I never expected to change VA's policy in a single meeting – but I do think that my club manager is handling this fairly in the light of VA's top level guidance. If clubs were free to decide individually, I'm sure that my club would find in favour of women.

I did feel that my fears and concerns, on behalf of all women, were heard and I was treated with respect. The manager had already passed on my views to senior management so our voices have been heard, if only quietly for the time being

There is still much to be done. However, I do feel reassured that the safety and dignity of women is something that my local manager takes seriously.

I think I've made a small amount of progress today; baby steps and all that.

I'd be really interested to hear outcomes from other clubs.

Thanks everyone for just being on these boards. You give me hope. All of you

I would like Virgin to look their punters in the face and say "If you're a female who cannot share a mixed sex space due to your disability, trauma, religion, culture or desire for privacy and dignity, then we cannot meet your needs and you are not welcome on our premises."

Own it.

If that's what you believe, be honest about it and own it. Stand behind it without fudging.