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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Virgin Active changing rooms segregated by gender identity

289 replies

EdgeOfACoin · 10/09/2020 12:50

Okay, I know this has been mentioned on passing on another thread, but I think it needs its own discussion.

Virgin Active have said that their changing rooms are segregated by gender identity and not by biological sex:

mobile.twitter.com/VirginActiveUK/status/1303378847711272961

I'm a VA member. This is something I would be prepared to cancel my membership over. Are they seriously saying that any male may access women-only communal changing rooms, where there are no individual cubicles, where women routinely queue for showers, provided he says he identifies as a woman?

This isn't about toilets. This isn't about who is 'peeing next to you' in the next cubicle. This is about women having to agree to undress in the presence of male-bodied strangers if they wish to use the facilities.

How is this even remotely defensible?

(I like the Twitter replies though.)

OP posts:
EdgeOfACoin · 19/09/2020 07:55

@Norma27

Love how they ignored every single one of your questions Edge.
It actually made me laugh.
OP posts:
Norma27 · 19/09/2020 07:54

Love how they ignored every single one of your questions Edge.

EdgeOfACoin · 19/09/2020 07:50

Oh, and she also said that she 'hoped she had answered my queries'. Confused

OP posts:
EdgeOfACoin · 19/09/2020 07:49

I've had a reply from the customer service manager from Virgin Active. Very generic; repeats a lot of the stuff that Norma got and didn't answer a single question of mine. The questions I had asked were:

  1. Will signage in the gym be changed to make it clear that segregation is on the basis of gender identity not biological sex so women can make an informed decision about whether to use the facilities?
  1. What safeguards will be in place to ensure that predatory males do not take advantage of the policy by saying they 'identify' as a woman?
  1. Will there be any provisions in place for women who do not feel comfortable undressing or showering in the presence of male-bodied people for personal or religious reasons (esp in view of the fact that the majority of transgender male-to-females do not have SRS and retain their male genitalia)?
  1. Why has VA not taken advantage of the exceptions in the Equality Act that allows provision for single-sex services?
  1. Please could I see a copy of the results of any consultation with women that would have taken place before implementation of the policy or the results of the risk-assessment that would have been carried out before implementation of the policy.

I got the following, somewhat confused response:

Thank you for taking the time to write to Matthew, I have reviewed your queries below with regards to segregation of changing room at Virgin Active.

We appreciate this is a sensitive area and it can be complicated. Here at Virgin Active we are an inclusive business, and aim to treat all of our members fairly, appropriately and with respect. If a transgender member wishes to use the changing rooms and other facilities which corresponds to their gender identity, they are able to do so. Any departure from that would only be made on a case by case basis, and would involve consideration of the specific circumstances of the particular situation.

Our approach is in line with the Equality and Human Rights Commission’s statutory code of practice on the Equality Act, with their guidance for businesses, and with the Equality Act 2010.

Additionally, the health and safety of our members and staff is of utmost importance to us and is not the same topic as a transgender member wishing to use the changing rooms and other facilities which corresponds to their gender identity.

We work hard to ensure our clubs are a safe, friendly and a welcoming place to be for anyone.

All members and staff must commit to conducting themselves in a well-mannered fashion when on our premises. We do not/ will not tolerate anything that puts another’s safety at risk; disturbs the enjoyment, or, impairs the use of a club for other people. Any breach of these objectives, by anyone, will lead to termination of membership or employment, as applicable. Our teams are trained in the prevention of risks identified to our members’ health and safety, all complaints we receive are dealt with quickly and firmly with our dedicated Safeguarding team at the forefront of any investigation

I would also like to reiterate that we operate single sex changing rooms, this hasn't changed, and we have no plans to adopt community style gender fluid changing rooms at present.

I suppose I am not surprised (though am annoyed because I'll have to find another gym). Don't want to go without a fight, so will write back - hints and tips welcome!!

OP posts:
Norma27 · 18/09/2020 20:00

Ha ha!
I did reply to some tweets after not using Twitter for years. I realised my profile pic was me and one daughter so I changed it to the closest thing I could photograph. Wallpaper which looked like a stone wall!

SerenityNowwwww · 18/09/2020 19:53

Oh it’s on the tip of my tongue...

Concrete pillar
Plastic bunker
Clay edifice
Plasticine dyke

Och, it will come to me...

Norma27 · 18/09/2020 19:49

So true @SerenityNowwwww
I wonder who that someone telling them the incorrect law could be?!

SerenityNowwwww · 18/09/2020 19:47

They do no risk assessment yet always seem to have a safeguarding offices. Odd that. It’s almost as if someone is telling them that it’s the law...

Norma27 · 18/09/2020 19:36

I just can't understand how these companies do no risk assessments and don't understand there are any risks. To women's well-being if nothing else.
I do exercise at home too so have that, however I love an actual gym. My mum always comes with me to the sauna etc too (once reopened) and she needs it for her mental health. She used the disabled changing at VA as she couldn't manage the stairs from changing rooms to wet area and she has a blue badge. The disabled are mixed sex but a couple of individual changing cubicles. This type of third space is what is needed.

SerenityNowwwww · 18/09/2020 19:29

@finnmcool

GLL/Better Gym didn't even bother to do risk assessments regarding allowing self identifying males into the female changing rooms; I got that from their National Safeguarding Officer. They're not pro women. They've been Stonewalled
That should be illegal!
Norma27 · 18/09/2020 19:17

For some reason I keep missing words out.
I hope the above makes sense!

Norma27 · 18/09/2020 19:16

I am definitely thinking of bannatynes. It is quite out of the way which is putting me off a bit.
I'm even thinking of David Lloyd for the children too. I have no idea if where they stand tho so will check first.
Village hotels is another local option but again no idea.
I just know if I can stand confronting another gym chain just yet!

finnmcool · 18/09/2020 18:53

GLL/Better Gym didn't even bother to do risk assessments regarding allowing self identifying males into the female changing rooms; I got that from their National Safeguarding Officer. They're not pro women. They've been Stonewalled

SerenityNowwwww · 18/09/2020 18:41

Bannatyne?

Norma27 · 18/09/2020 18:36

I've not replied yet apart from saying Ng a proper response is forthcoming where I will dissect every sentence. I needed a break today!

But. Does anybody know the stance of other gym chains? I do want the join another gym hopefully. One option is the council gym which has a changing village which I am not overly keen on, but at least I know where I stand.

ThinEndoftheWedge · 17/09/2020 17:36

We are sorry if you feel we have not addressed your concerns about the safety of female members within our changing rooms. The health and safety of our members and staff is of utmost importance to us and is not the same topic as a transgender member wishing to use the changing rooms and other facilities which corresponds to their gender identity.

If anyone needs a textbook example of cognitive dissonance...

And their legal basis for gender identity over sex is what exactly?

Are they making it clear that their changing rooms are now mixed sex?

EyesOpening · 17/09/2020 17:19

@Norma27

Here is my head office reply. No safety issues involved at all. Doesn't think of privacy and dignity issues.

We are sorry if you feel we have not addressed your concerns about the safety of female members within our changing rooms. The health and safety of our members and staff is of utmost importance to us and is not the same topic as a transgender member wishing to use the changing rooms and other facilities which corresponds to their gender identity.

We work hard to ensure our clubs are a safe, friendly and a welcoming place to be for anyone.

All members and staff must commit to conducting themselves in a well-mannered fashion when on our premises. We do not tolerate anything that puts another’s safety at risk; disturbs the enjoyment, or, impairs the use of a club for other people.

Any breach of these objectives, by anyone, will lead to termination of membership or employment, as applicable. Our teams are trained in the prevention of risks identified to our members’ health and safety, all complaints we receive are dealt with quickly and firmly with our dedicated Safeguarding team at the forefront of any investigation.

there was a comment on another thread, perhaps someone will remember which and/or where, where a woman who turned round and walked out of a toilet when a transwoman was there, was accused of transphobia (or it might have been a theoretical example), that is not going to make the woman's experience enjoyable and together with

c) the majority of women will not dare to complain or face down a male behaving in an inappropriate way, because it is not safe to for women to do that with most unknown males behaving inappropriately

they may just leave the gym never to return and the gym would have no idea of the reason

Norma27 · 17/09/2020 17:03

It really is a weak response @EdgeOfACoin
It does make me realise I did the correct thing in cancelling
I also need to decide which other gym I join eventually.
I think bannatynes had a decent approach. It is slightly out of the way but only as much as VA was.
The village gym but I don't know their approach at all.
Or our council gym which has a changing village which i don't really like but at least it is all individual or family cubicles. I can also walk to my nearest one and use about 10 others in my city. 3 or 4 others only a couple of miles away.

EdgeOfACoin · 17/09/2020 16:55

Norma, that's such a weak response!

It sounds as though different branches are implementing the policy differently. It's clear that the people at the top haven't given this proper consideration at all.

OP posts:
Norma27 · 17/09/2020 16:36

Don't apologise @MichelleofzeResistance
I am grateful for all this.
I have a degree in law but graduated 20 years ago then went into accountancy and other industries so never feel well versed in law now. I am new to understanding what is happening so haven't been looking into this law etc before.
Thank you everyone.

DeaconBoo · 17/09/2020 16:34

We do not tolerate anything that puts another’s safety at risk; disturbs the enjoyment, or, impairs the use of a club for other people.

They're on dodgy ground with claiming not to tolerate anything that 'disturbs the enjoyment' - if pressed I'd say waiting too long for a shower 'disturbs my enjoyment' but I'm not asking for a zero-tolerance policy on it.

More seriously, I'd say that privacy and dignity would fall under the 'enjoyment' bit, so at least they're not just saying 'people have to actually break the law to be banned' - being made to feel uncomfortable seems to be vaguely included, but I'd imagine they again get on to dodgy ground with people claiming each other have disturbed their enjoyment.

This is a bizarre sentence and I'm not sure I understand it: "The health and safety of our members and staff is of utmost importance to us and is not the same topic as a transgender member wishing to use the changing rooms and other facilities which corresponds to their gender identity."

Could they explain why they have segregated changing rooms if not for health and safety reasons? We are talking about whether sex segregation should be adhered to for H&S reasons - could they clarify why this is not a topic that includes transgender people? Do they accept that transgender people have transitioned from the opposite 'sex' - surely to deny that denies the experience of many (not all) trans people?

MichelleofzeResistance · 17/09/2020 16:31

Also (Sorry Norma!)

The whole: we'll terminate the membership after someone male has done something inappropriate that's distressed a female member thing....

a) not even forensically evidenced rape gets successfully prosecuted in most cases in the UK

b) it will be the word of the woman and witness against the male's with everyone walking on eggshells in terror of seeming transphobic regardless of the male's behaviour, and the woman runs the risk of staff making accusations of transphobia and waving an equality policy in her face

c) the majority of women will not dare to complain or face down a male behaving in an inappropriate way, because it is not safe to for women to do that with most unknown males behaving inappropriately

d) how many female members will just quietly get the fuck out of dodge and never dare to say just the presence of a male in that room, regardless of how that male subjectively identifies themselves, prevents them being able to use that room themselves?

And why the fuck are they only prepared to safeguard females after one has been sufficiently harmed?

MichelleofzeResistance · 17/09/2020 16:26

And still the bottom line: why is everything about prioritising the needs of male members instead of female people who need and want female only spaces?

SerenityNowwwww · 17/09/2020 16:19

You could also add... ‘And personally, I think you are a shower if sh**s’.

This used to be a favourite sign off of mine when I was particularly pissed (years ago back in letter writing days). I remember a lawyer advising me to put ‘and personally I think...’.

I’d make sure I’d send it to a named person and fax it to a central office number.

MichelleofzeResistance · 17/09/2020 16:19

We work hard to ensure our clubs are a safe, friendly and a welcoming place to be for anyone.

Except for females wanting privacy and dignity, or who have a faith, culture, trauma or disability that precludes them from sharing mixed sex spaces. So it's not 'anyone' or 'everyone' is it?

We do not tolerate anything that puts another’s safety at risk; disturbs the enjoyment, or, impairs the use of a club for other people

I'm sorry, are they saying female people who can't share mixed sex spaces aren't even 'people' now? Obviously there will be some females who's 'enjoyment' and basic access is impaired to the point they are excluded.

They seem to be taking the popular political approach of just pretending the unwanted issues and people don't exist.