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Original poster

Virgin Active changing rooms segregated by gender identity

289 replies

EdgeOfACoin · 10/09/2020 12:50

Okay, I know this has been mentioned on passing on another thread, but I think it needs its own discussion.

Virgin Active have said that their changing rooms are segregated by gender identity and not by biological sex:

mobile.twitter.com/VirginActiveUK/status/1303378847711272961

I'm a VA member. This is something I would be prepared to cancel my membership over. Are they seriously saying that any male may access women-only communal changing rooms, where there are no individual cubicles, where women routinely queue for showers, provided he says he identifies as a woman?

This isn't about toilets. This isn't about who is 'peeing next to you' in the next cubicle. This is about women having to agree to undress in the presence of male-bodied strangers if they wish to use the facilities.

How is this even remotely defensible?

(I like the Twitter replies though.)

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Original poster
EdgeOfACoin · 25/09/2020 22:03

I think there is a real disconnect between those at the top of VA and the individual club managers.

I still need to write back to VA HQ - the official response was abysmal. Liz Truss's speech was helpful. I'd hoped that we would have had some clarity from Ann Sinnott's case now too.

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HavelockVetinari · 25/09/2020 21:49

@SerenityNowwwww

The proof of the pudding though... can you really imagine a Saturday staff member (maybe a student earning some beer money) standing up to someone like the person who ran amock in a convenience store in the US (the recording of often shown - call me ma’am) shouting, banging into things, threatening them? Or shouting the odds about the (not) Equalities Act with various wokey members of the club jumping in saying how dreadfully unfair it is...
I believe the manager I spoke to today would be having none of it, she was very strong and succinct in her explanation (she's definitely an ally), I really don't fancy the chances of a be-penised individual trying it on.

Mind you, I'm based up North, folk tend not to be so "woke" here.

SerenityNowwwww · 25/09/2020 17:23

The proof of the pudding though... can you really imagine a Saturday staff member (maybe a student earning some beer money) standing up to someone like the person who ran amock in a convenience store in the US (the recording of often shown - call me ma’am) shouting, banging into things, threatening them? Or shouting the odds about the (not) Equalities Act with various wokey members of the club jumping in saying how dreadfully unfair it is...

HavelockVetinari · 25/09/2020 16:56

I had a chat with the manager at my VA club today - she said the they absolutely don't allow random men to self-ID as women, if a male identifying as a female wants to use the club they make individual arrangements by using private areas of the club. It was very reassuring. She also said that anyone over the age of 9 flashing a penis in the ladies' would be escorted from the premises by security, regardless of how they identify.

I'm relieved TBH, I love my gym, I'd hate to have to leave and go elsewhere!

Norma27 · 22/09/2020 11:15

The statement is out. There is a thread about it. I'm out so not read the comments but says EA allows sex based rights where needed.
Think it is good news although only glanced quickly and not read the comments.

Original poster
EdgeOfACoin · 22/09/2020 09:46

Thanks, Norma. Will watch out for both.

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Norma27 · 22/09/2020 09:42

There is another thread which says Liz Truss is making a statement today.
Also cut off date for EHRC to reply to Ann Sinnott.

SerenityNowwwww · 20/09/2020 12:44

It’s the definition - the devil is indeed in the detail.

highame · 20/09/2020 11:49

Well, when I'm there they are, but can't guarantee people are doing as they should. However, when facilities are available for Transpeople, it is easier to exert ones rights I would guess

Soontobe60 · 20/09/2020 09:30

@highame

Our gym has a gender neutral changing room/loo plus male and female. In the swimming area, it has a family room and also gender neutral. The rest is men or women.

What the hell is so difficult about that

Are you assuming that the women using the women only section are actual women and not transwomen?
Soontobe60 · 20/09/2020 09:22

@EvelynBeatrice

I don’t fancy sharing a changing room with a strange bloke any more than anyone else. However I don’t think it is right to say that these organisations are misunderstanding the law. I don’t think (happy to be proved wrong)that there is any ‘right’ to single sex spaces - I read the Equality Act as conferring an ability / a discretion to permit sex segregation where it is proportionate etc. That means that it is up to the service provider in question and of course, it is more bother as it has to be justified etc. Of course there are some building/ health and safety regulations in relation to toilets etc which provide for separate facilities in some cases, but that’s a different thing.
Single sex spaces are the default position. Where there are people in states of undress, therefore more vulnerable, they need to remain as single sex. That is the justification.
Norma27 · 20/09/2020 09:13

@EdgeOfACoin I've not replied yet either (apart from saying what a derisory email and I will be in contact later with a proper response) so will also wait until Wednesday.

TheFleegleHasLanded · 20/09/2020 09:08

@EdgeOfACoin

Yes, it's such good news.

I still need to write back to VA but now I'm wondering whether I should wait until Wednesday after Liz Truss has made her announcement.

Also, am I right in thinking that the EHRC's guidance on single-sex spaces is due to be clarified soon...?

I'm going to repeat my questions but it would be good to bring in relevant bits of the law.

The GEO and EHRC must respond to Ann by Tuesday. Liz Truss is due to speak on Wednesday but we may get the details of her announcement before then as her shadow minister will need time to peruse it and formulate questions for Wednesday.

In your shoes I would certainly hang fire for a couple of days; there will certainly be something you can use from those two events.

Original poster
EdgeOfACoin · 20/09/2020 08:41

Yes, it's such good news.

I still need to write back to VA but now I'm wondering whether I should wait until Wednesday after Liz Truss has made her announcement.

Also, am I right in thinking that the EHRC's guidance on single-sex spaces is due to be clarified soon...?

I'm going to repeat my questions but it would be good to bring in relevant bits of the law.

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Norma27 · 20/09/2020 07:22

There is another thread about a Sunday times article stating self-id is to be taken off the table. The article states how most people want trans rights (obviously) but that single sex spaces should remain sex based.
The article states it had been recognised how certain lobbying groups tried to skew the figures so took that into account.
Apparently Liz Truss will talk in parliament on Wednesday on the issue.

This doesn't mean companies such as VA will take the sex-based rights of women seriously yet, but it must be a step in the right direction. The thread also mentions once Ann Symmott's case gets heard and details how ECHR are giving incorrect guidance on this issue this could start unravelling.
Let's cross our fingers!
I hope I stated that all correctly!
I can't link the thread/article sorry.

TheShoesa · 19/09/2020 21:04

How infuriating.

How can they possibly be promising SINGLE SEX changing rooms, if they are allowing members of the OPPOSITE SEX in on their own say so. FFS.

VA may think they are not operating a gender fluid changing areas (whatever the fuck that is supposed to be, I'll assume they mean mixed sex) but if they allow self ID transwomen into the women's changing area willy nilly, that is EXACTLY what they are doing.

Sorry for all the capitals, the reply they sent has made me more than a bit cross!

Original poster
EdgeOfACoin · 19/09/2020 08:58

@DeaconBoo

Also "gender fluid" to describe a changing room Grin they are clueless!
Yeah, I liked that too.

The impression I am getting from NiceLegs and Norma's experiences, as well as my own, is that VA HQ is clueless. The individual branch managers, who would actually have to deal with any problems, might be a bit more switched on. However, their hands are tied to an extent because of the company policy set by HQ.

VA HQ has clearly been badly advised regarding the content of the Equality Act 2010.

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DeaconBoo · 19/09/2020 08:27

Also "gender fluid" to describe a changing room Grin they are clueless!

DeaconBoo · 19/09/2020 08:26

Your questions are clear. Personally I'd keep pushing for them to be actually answered rather than confuse them with further ones.
I absolutely hate it when questions I ask are just ignored!

SerenityNowwwww · 19/09/2020 08:21

Just asked them outright ‘so what you are saying is...’ in black and white.

Original poster
EdgeOfACoin · 19/09/2020 08:11

Exactly, tinkiiev.

There's a complete lack of understanding of the issues.

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tinkiiev · 19/09/2020 08:10

I don't understand - why does the reply say

^
I would also like to reiterate that we operate single sex changing rooms, this hasn't changed, and we have no plans to adopt community style gender fluid changing rooms at present^.

I thought that was exactly what they weren't doing??Confused

highame · 19/09/2020 08:07

Equality and Human Rights Commission’s statutory code of practice on the Equality Act, with their guidance for businesses, and with the Equality Act 2010.

So, they have had their guidance from a public body which will be the subject of a court case. It has already said it's guidance was incorrect and amended. We now wait to see if it is going to inform all of those incorrectly advised organisations that it got it wrong.

Norma27 · 19/09/2020 08:01

In previous roles I've had, I have had to answer questions I would rather not. I would have been hauled over the coals if I just bloody ignored them.

SerenityNowwwww · 19/09/2020 08:00

They are breaking the law surely? Don’t they have lawyers?

Dedicated Safeguarding team? Risk assessment? I think not.

“We aim to treat all of our members fairly, appropriately and with respect...” apart from anyone who raises concerns.

Daily mail, where are you now?