Caster Semenya has lost appeal

www.jpurol.com/article/S1477-5131(18)30499-6/pdf

There is a document here

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/andr.12108

Describing almost universal male gender identity in 5ard cases raised as female.

But that is in India and mutations in India are not necessarily those in South Africa

There is a study here of 10 cases in the same family

cms.galenos.com.tr/Uploads/Article_1539/JCRPE-8-236.pdf

And gender identity and assignment both varied even within the same family.

In general it does seem that the male gender identity is likely to assert itself, but that is not inevitable.

in these cases they often want to try to achieve either a male or female phenotype and if the genitalia are highly undervirilized then a male phenotype might not be possible.

Clearly there is no fault in being born with a pseudovagina and not realising that one has a rare genetic disorder.

Many people with Caster Semenya's condition perceive themselves as female.

Not doubting you necessarily, but could you please provide a link to back up the claim that many people with 5-ARD perceive themselves as female?

This ruling affects the other two medalists on the Rio 800m, doesn't it?
If so, have they just bowed out of this controversy gracefully? I don't think I've read about them since the initial ruling.

You can see how CS has undergone male puberty. CS is not a female with hyperandrogegism. CS is more correctly a biological male with a dsd. CS has a huge amount of testosterone being produced by testes, compared to women, and that has formed the muscle and skeleton which is equivalent to other males. This is not in the ballpark of the other women in women's athletics.

CS has still got a carte blanche to use this male bodied advantage over the women in some distances. They can also compete in the other distances if their testosterone is brought down to a level which would even then be in multiples of the level of testosterone that would be natural for the women they would be running against. CS is producing and responding to their testosterone surge like other males. This is not AIS.

CS has an advantage that comes from a body which has gone through male puberty. What other woman will have that? Don't say the ones that get the silver medal and the bronze like in Brazil! If women are losing out to people with male bodies with a dsd like CS then they should create another class because the woman's one would be a farce. You may as well have all males running against women.

The issue is whether it is fair for women to have to compete with people with these male advantages. Irrespective of their situation or how they identify or live outside of the sport.

You have only got to observe Caster for it to be obvious. Watching Caster's gait, looking at Caster's body, listening to the voice, observing the mannerisms and body language. There has been a lot of gaslighting.

And let's remember this ruling doesn't stop CS running, it just stops them running against women. They can compete against other males.

No, CS can run against women. Just has to avoid 400,800,1500m & 1 mile. OR can race in those categories after reducing testosterone.

I don’t think they could stand up well in the male categories. Too old, too slow.

And let's remember this ruling doesn't stop CS running, it just stops them running against women. They can compete against other males.

I don't think it would be reasonable for example in 2009 when it was learned that Caster Semenya had testes (if not before), for Caster Semenya to say 'ok I'm not going to run any more'.

Because there are cases such as Maria José Martínez-Patiño, who is XY (AIS) and seems quite solid in her female gender, were cleared to compete in the past.

So in 2009 it would not necessarily have been clear that Caster Semenya should not compete, because Caster Semenya was different from cases in the past who perhaps should have been allowed to compete (and indeed were).

It's not reasonable to say 'shit, I'm actually a bloke, not a lesbian? better pack it all in, and become a bricklayer'.

It's been litigated, Semenya lost and we now IMO have an answer for this condition (5-ARD), i.e. not in the female category.

I don't think we need to be too condemnatory.

Caster Semenya appeared to be female at birth.

This is a condition with varied presentation depending on the genes.

Some with the condition will spend their whole life as women.

In some countries the majority will lives as women.

In others the majority as men.

There is no wrongdoing per se.

Caster Semenya lacks DHT to some degree. DHT is a potent androgen, more potent than testosterone in its androgenizing effect. While it's not considered anabolic, it's perfectly reasonable for Caster Semenya to argue the toss on this point, given that Caster Semenya does not have normal male biology.

'Playing with boys and wearing trousers' doesn't make you a man.

Having testes doesn't either, in all cases. Someone with testes but a completely non-functioning androgen receptor is very feminine and is for reasonable purposes a woman in that they have breasts and haven't experienced the effects of testosterone in their brain and are likely to perceive themselves as female. It isn't a trump card to say 'they are biologically male'. We do have to deeper than that.

Many people with Caster Semenya's condition perceive themselves as female.

It isn't really on for us to say 'Caster Semenya is a man', because Caster Semenya does not have normal male biology and had none of
an important male hormone before birth, and a low amount now. This is something to be argued in court, it isn't really possible to prove that people with CS' condition are on the whole competitive with men. They might or might not be. It seems fairly obvious that they have an advantage over women, but clearly a DSD doesn't allow us to just say 'this is a man, it's so obvious'.

However, having this been argued in court, Caster Semenya lost, and reasonably so.

Oh yes indeed, but, while I did originally think this may be something that would have been known at an early age in a White suburban child and not known till adulthood after competing in a rural Black child, it seems as if it would be likely obvious at puberty (and unlikely before) in most children.
So it's not a lifelong deception but as you say, it's also something that has been known for years.

None of this alters the fact that Caster and Caster's manager, coach and family have known for at least 10 years that Caster has gone through male puberty and is biologically male. I don't think anyone is doubting the lack of early diagnosis, although IMO the male puberty must have given pause for thought.

Looking up DSDs it suggests that most internal testes aren't discovered till either a) the child has a hernia or b) puberty doesn't happen.

In a poor village where some children are very poorly nourished, girls are likely to have later puberty anyway. So there's a chance it wouldn't have been noticed until it became apparent that male puberty was taking over (i.e. likely a bit later than female puberty).

I don't doubt that CS's family thought CS was a girl. Certainly initially. I don't know what medical examination or tests were available and it may even be that it was a home birth with just another woman acting as midwife. I don't know what medical care was available in that time and place. I'd be surprised if they would have been able to see the internal testes. They possibly wouldn't have been able to see or diagnose that this baby had a condition where a boy's male genitals just didn't develop properly in the womb rather than just thinking this baby was a female.

Yeah, I would've thought the way internal testes would be checked for is on a scan when the mother is pregnant, that's when they check all the organs. And we can't assume a poor black woman in a rural village, pregnant during an era where the state barely gave a shit if she lived or died, would've had access to proper antenatal care.

I don't doubt that CS's family thought CS was a girl. Certainly initially. I don't know what medical examination or tests were available and it may even be that it was a home birth with just another woman acting as midwife. I don't know what medical care was available in that time and place. I'd be surprised if they would have been able to see the internal testes. They possibly wouldn't have been able to see or diagnose that this baby had a condition where a boy's male genitals just didn't develop properly in the womb rather than just thinking this baby was a female.

However, at puberty when CS's decidedly male testes kicked in and started producing male levels of testosterone to which CS's male body was and is obviously responsive, then it must have been obvious that CS was male. As CS's body was masculinised because of male puberty, it must have been apparent that CS was not female. The teacher must have seen a male pupil who must have looked, acted and dressed accordingly.

Possibly when the teacher was told that CS was officially a girl they were well surprised. It is interesting that CS was allowed to wear a boy's version of the uniform. It may be that all were of the like opinion that CS was a boy.

I must admit, I can understand that human nature side of not questioning something that can earn you lots of dosh. Certainly when it must be relative easy as you have an advantage over the class you run against. Man is seldom a noble beast. That is why the rules are important for fairness.

TRAs on Caster Semenya: she was AFAB, how dare you question her right to compete!

Also TRAs: Men who were AMAB say they're now a woman, how dare you question it!

So which is it? Birth assignment or feelings? And doesn't CS live as a man off-track anyway?

So much inconsistency.

My comment was not meant to be directed at you but at people who might be reading but only skimmed the earlier part of the thread.

Apologies.

kantastic

That is how I read the timeline as well.

I know that . The caption says Semenya ( left) .

From the Let’s Run article linked to upthread. This is Semenya in high school.

I don't think that's what it intends, you are assuming the age and grade are what you'd expect in the UK.

No I'm bloody not, I looked it up.Stop contradicting me when you clearly haven't. I can't understand how someone could have the cheek to repeatedly contradict another person based on assumptions they've pulled out of, politely, thin air.

I've now said this on FOUR comments I've made on this thread and I will damn well say it again. Year 11 in South Africa is age 16-17 That is the age when Caster's coach found out Caster "was a girl" and it is 2-3 years after Caster took up running.

If you need me to say it a fifth time I bloody will, this is really annoying me now.

also, I do know why the previous comment was unclear!

I had an interlocutor who didn't like me pointing out that Caster was known as a boy at school. They were doing that "say random nonsense to create confusion" thing that happens so often in gender discussions. So my comment had little hedging clauses included in it to address the nonsense they spouted.

Of course they could be fibbing but the article doesn't contain anything to suggest that the writer suspected that.