Caster Semenya has lost appeal

It's so important this is reported accurately (i.e. that Semenya is, whatever they grew up believing, a male person with a DSD) is that it is also true that black women have their feminity policed, athletic women have their feminity policed, there have always been "jokes" about women who want to play rugby/weightlift/box being "secretly men haha".

It can be right to push generally against the idea that women are small and delicate and look a certain way, and should care about their nails and hair and makeup rather than whether they're the best in the scrum or the fastest on the track, whilst also stating clearly that, in this particular case, Semenya is XY and shouldn't be competing in women's sports.

You see, to me that is the problem. It is not about her testosterone level, I agree. It is something else, but what exactly is it? and can we actually meassure it? I don't think is just about having a Y either. Most female athletes would beat most "normal" men.

Does this help?

the things is Lua its simly not true that most female athletes would beat 'normal' men

web.law.duke.edu/sports/sex-sport/comparative-athletic-performance/

as taken from the article

which is why we use sex is what we use to categorise not gender

"Just in the single year 2017, Olympic, World, and U.S. Champion Tori Bowie's 100 meters lifetime best of 10.78 was beaten 15,000 times by men and boys. (Yes, that’s the right number of zeros.)"

The advantages that Caster has are the same biological advantages that male athletes have and so there is already a category for those particular advantages. The blog on CAIS was very interesting. Thanks for posting. That would cause me a greater dilemma.

"I don't think is just about having a Y either. Most female athletes would beat most "normal" men."

Hmm. Wasn't there a rapper (Zuby?) who (to prove a point) identified as a woman and set new records in women's weightlifting or something?

Lua

None of your comment makes any sense. It’s almost like you’re deliberately trying to make this look more complicated or random than it is. It’s very clear what it is that makes males and females different, and what those differences result in physically in terms of speed, mass and strength advantages for males. It’s been discussed at great length. I’m not sure why you’re making it seem like it’s so hard to create categories we’ve been using for decades. We don’t have categories based on shoe size or other random things. This is biological sex.

And the Paralympic Games is just as careful and scientific about their categories.

I am pretty sure most athletes have something pretty extraordinary anyway, so how do we decide which ones are worth disqualifying?

XY chromosomes is a good place to start when it comes to women's sport.

It’s about sex, not gender.

It’s about male physical advantage. And that is evident even before puberty. My kids do athletics and swimming. As age groups, on average, the boys outperform the girls at the same events even before puberty. Puberty then drives that difference even wider. There is no greater differential of human performance than sex. Look how stark the difference is:

boysvswomen.com/#/

And this is not to denigrate the female sex. It’s to accept that difference and to acknowledge the universal truth of it so we can have sport that women and girls can be successful in their own right.

Regarding testosterone limits in athletics, I think an upper limit of 5 is still too high if they are basing inclusion solely on that. It's twice the upper limit of biological women.

So CS is now married to a woman... are they a lesbian couple? The people who support Semenya, do they think "she" is a gender non-conforming female?

I feel bad for her. But as the saying goes "Hard cases make bad law." If CS were allowed to run in women's competitions, countries which care about nothing except winning in international competitions will put their efforts into scouting for intersex athletes rather than encouraging girls' sports. Athletically talented girls will find themselves being pressured into things like synchronized swimming and gymnastics as these will be the only things that natal women have any chance of winning a medal in.

It's not just about testosterone, male biology confirs many physical advantages in the sporting sense

You see, to me that is the problem. It is not about her testosterone level, I agree. It is something else, but what exactly is it? and can we actually meassure it? I don't think is just about having a Y either. Most female athletes would beat most "normal" men.

I am pretty sure most athletes have something pretty extraordinary anyway, so how do we decide which ones are worth disqualifying?

It is a bit like trying to distinguish the different categories in paralympic games. I love the paralympic games, but I can't help thinking in some of the races that there are some gross mismatching.

I, of course, agree that gender is usually a fair charactheristic to categorize athletes. But I am sure there are many other traits that do give unfair disadvantage. So I cannot help but feel that Caster's situation do highlight the unfairness of it all. If we start digging as deep in every athlete we will find advantages in all of them. Some will be considered a "genetic gift" others will be considered "cheating".

and to have to have discussed publicly but that was Casters choice, in order to rob women of medals and sponsorship they pursued this relentlessly.

The article that @RandomNameForRandomThreads linked to is very clear that the media have deliberately obscured the fact that Semenya has XY chromosomes:

"How the Associated Press, Reuters, NY Times, NPR, Washington Post, and BBC could all leave this CRUCIAL fact out of their reporting is beyond me. Not a single one of them mentioned it at all. It should have been in the lead paragraph of every story so people like my mother, who sent me a confused email after she saw an article on Semenya, can really understand what this is all about. Instead, the closest we get to the truth was that some of the articles talked about how Semenya has intersex “traits” or “characteristics.”

BovaryX Agreed. It’s more serious than most people realise. A distrust of media means we have a situation where nobody believes anything and serious issues are being mismanaged and misunderstood. I find it quite concerning, especially as the BBC are one of the least trusted by the public now. For good reason I think.

I'm not sure about those with complete androgen insensitivity; but I agree those with XY who have undergone male puberty and are at least partially androgen sensitive should not be allowed to compete in women's events.

I do still have some sympathy for Caster, despite thinking it's the right ruling, and even if it's true that Caster and coaches etc have known for years what the diagnosis is; it's still a complicated and confusing personal situation to grow up with, and to have to have discussed publicly

Lua
It is far more than just T levels, it is what happens to the human male body just before and after birth and at puberty. Leaner muscle, stronger, larger bones, higher oxygen levels in the blood, larger heart and lungs, different shaped pelvis, making the male body more mechanically efficient.

I believe the media has been complicit in hiding the true facts about this and other cases.

It’s more than a belief, it’s factual and demonstrably so. Even today, they’re still not reporting the full reasons. No MSM have reported this accurately.

I believe the media has been complicit in hiding the true facts about this and other cases

Yes.

Women's sports are for female athletes, not 'compromised' males.

No males should be in women's sport.

IMHO, no athlete with XY chromosomes, even if it is a 46XY dsd should be able to compete in the female category in sport. Semenya had a 30 race winning streak at 800m, holds the 600m World record.
I believe the media has been complicit in hiding the true facts about this and other cases.

Lua

It's not just about testosterone, male biology confirs many physical advantages in the sporting sense.