Caster Semenya has lost appeal

To paraphrase Enstein: let's put this in language a six year old can understand.

Who is female? Who is male?

(In relation to sport in this case)

Sorry, I happily geek-out over this stuff, because it is seriously fascinating.

However, to repeat my last paragraph (which was the TL:DR bit): But in assessing this case-by-case the question should always be "has this person got the advantages (or part of the advantages) conferred by male puberty or not?" Not "how were they socialised from birth?"

So did his coaches and team leaders.

As Holy said.

Semenya knew he was male entering female competitions.

"I think DSDs need to be treated on a case-by-case basis for this reason. For instance, I think there's a documented case where the SRY gene somehow got translocated onto the X chromosome, resulting in a person who was chromosomally XX but because of the presence of the SRY gene developed testes and typically male genitalia (and was able to father children). Similarly, someone with a malfunctioning SRY gene can be chromosomally XY yet develop normal female genitalia and a uterus (albeit with non-functioning ovaries). (NB, Semenya is neither of these - she has 5ARD, and internal testes)."

To paraphrase Enstein: let's put this in language a six year old can understand.

Who is female? Who is male?

(In relation to sport in this case)

I think DSDs need to be treated on a case-by-case basis for this reason. For instance, I think there's a documented case where the SRY gene somehow got translocated onto the X chromosome, resulting in a person who was chromosomally XX but because of the presence of the SRY gene developed testes and typically male genitalia (and was able to father children). Similarly, someone with a malfunctioning SRY gene can be chromosomally XY yet develop normal female genitalia and a uterus (albeit with non-functioning ovaries). (NB, Semenya is neither of these - she has 5ARD, and internal testes).

But in assessing this case-by-case the question should always be "has this person got the advantages (or part of the advantages) conferred by male puberty or not?" Not "how were they socialised from birth?"

embryo.asu.edu/pages/sex-determining-region-y-mammals

ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/swyer-syndrome

ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/5-alpha-reductase-deficiency

I'm not kind. Caster Semenya is man. He may have worn dresses as a child and had a devastating shock when told he was a man (I imagine the medical examinations were pretty invasive too) but this was reported on over 10 years ago. There should not be a single report using she/her in relation to CS.

When they said the future is female, this is what they meant.

Which brings us back to the fact that males such as Caster Samenya knowingly enter female only competitions - as males.

No honour.

We can have fairness in sport without othering people who are different.

That the crux of the issue, because that statement is untrue.

The very reason this issue is so important is precisely because of the need to protect women's sports by preventing men from competing.

If you can't identify (aka "other") someone with XY chromosomes and determine their eligibility to compete in their actual biological sex category then you can't have fairness.

Being "fair" isn't being kind/unkind to to a specific individual.

It's about rules that apply equally to everyone.

there is a lot of variability in people with her diagnosis (some have wombs, some do not).

No.

5-ard II deficiency causes under virilized genitalia (because of DHT deficiency in utero) which may appear female at birth

Since there are still testes, AMH is produced in utero and no uterus exists.

There is still variability due to different mutations or absence of the gene, but these affect degrees of undervirilization, spermatogenesis etc.

If she had better access to health care as a baby she may have been raised as a boy but there is a lot of variability in people with her diagnosis (some have wombs, some do not).

This is incorrect. Males with this condition do not ever have a uterus.

www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/sep/08/caster-semenya-loses-appeal-against-world-athletics-testosterone-rules?CMP=share_btn_tw

Good article by Sean Ingle in the Guardian. Unsurprisingly, since it's the Guardian, he is unable to say the one word which is needed, but does, thank goodness (and well done him) manage to avoid saying an outright lie.

I actually do think the decision is fair. What I object to is you referring to her as a man which is not how she describes herself. She was brought up as a girl and has lived experience as a girl (even if she enjoyed playing with boys).

Some people with 46 XY DSD are raised add girls and some are raised as boys. If she had better access to health care as a baby she may have been raised as a boy but there is a lot of variability in people with her diagnosis (some have wombs, some do not).

We can have fairness in sport without othering people who are different.

If someone has a male DSD, has testes, responds to androgens and went through a male puberty, they are male.

Caster is biologically male.

The fact they were not diagnosed as intersex growing up is irrelevant.

If you want to compete in elite sports the classification of participation is based on sex.

Your actual sex not the sex you assign to yourself.

The reason for this classification is simple.

The combined advantages of male puberty and testosterone "top trump" any other physical advantages in sporting prowess.

It's why the argument that one woman was lucky to have an advantage over another because she was born taller is no different to a trans woman being lucky to be born as they were doesn't hold water.

With a few very rare exceptions (horse riding and ultra endurance) a mans overall physical attributes with win over a women every time because it's not just because on average they are stronger, or taller, or have bigger lungs or narrow hips etc etc it's because they have ALL of these things simultaneously.

One female elite athlete might have some attributes "better" than other women which puts them at the top of their game - but they don't have everything better by a very significant margin.

That's why even someone as accomplished as Serena Williams can and has been beaten by other female players but wouldn't win against any of the top 100 men.

It's also why Caster was undefeated in over 30 elite races.

Chromosomes aren't the first point.

Testes produce lots of testosterone which benefits their owners in strength terms and permanently virilizes them and affects their brains.

Ovaries produce oestrogen which makes women less muscular and shorter. Permanently

If you have ovaries you are a women for sport.

If you have testes the presumption should be you are not.

Unkind. Unfair.

We all know what's actually unkind and unfair.

Do take a look at the Caster Semenya video posted up thread.

As for the crap that passes for 'journalism' these days. How can anyone hold their head up and call themselves a so-called professional when they show such a lack of research and factual knowledge.

Posted before I finished my post. Was also going to say there seems to be a touch of the Robin DiAngelo in people like this: they assume other people have the same racist thoughts as they do.

[quote Doyoumind]I don't know why I'm so livid about this thread as none of it is a surprise given Stonewalls manipulation of facts and new strategy to include intersex in their campaigning.

twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1303628451102982144?s=19[/quote]
I see someone else has taken them to task for it, but do they really think participation in sport is not already regulated?? Idiots.

Why are all these posters saying they feel bad for her?

That's beyond me. Why have sympathy. Semenya knew exactly what was being done!

Alsonota girl she isn’t a man. She is an intersex woman, she was brought up as a girl she discovered that she was intersex as an adult. She may have XY chromosomes but that doesn’t make her a manI think it is unkind and unfair.

I understand why they came to the decision they did but I do feel sad for her and the way this has been debated is cruel and would be hurtful to anyone.

Good.

Off to read the background.

Shame it took so long.

@DeRigueurMortis @Kit19 @PronounssheRa

Thank you for your help.

Re the racism claims; is there a significant percentage difference of the occurrence of DSDs in white or black populations or do they occur fairly equally across all groups?