Caster Semenya has lost appeal

CS’s wife is pregnant with their first child at the moment

So will CS be the mum or the dad to that child?

The child has a mother, clearly, but if they are in a lesbian relationship )which doesn't seem to be the case) will CS be using female language or the mask slip further when the child learns to talk?

Googling pics of the couple there is something about their body language or something that is...IDK.

There is nothing about a sperm donor being used so...

There’s so much on the Ross Tucker thread!!!

But because there was a few comments on other ‘unfair advantages’

Sorry, one or two more to add. First, many are using analogies of Michael Phelps’ long arms or big feet, or Usain Bolt’s fast-twitch muscles, to argue that “natural advantages” such as these, and thus Semenya having high T, should be left alone & even celebrated. Let’s assess

First, sport exists to find exceptional individuals WITHIN categories. We actually want to celebrate things like muscle fibres & neurological advantages in sprinters. We accept that tall people make it in the NBA, that lungs & hearts matter. Sport rewards these attributes (20/)

And that’s precisely why a separate female category is necessary - 2 humans who possess all “the right stuff” to be sprinters or endurance cyclists or tennis players (or pick your sport) will differ by enormous margins if one is male (thus getting T benefits) and the other female We can see this in every event, where boys outperform the best adult females, even when they’re not as dedicated, well-resourced or talented. Inferior (relative to champions) males outperform historically successful females. They are identical in all respects that matter, and different in one that should not matter. Hence, a category. It “protects” (sometimes literally) females and allows them to be celebrated deservedly. We do not offer the same “protection” to people with small feet, short arms, slow-twitch muscles, or to short people. (23/)

So these analogies using Phelps’ arms and feet, or Bolt’s muscles are a) tenuous at best, and b) absolutely irrelevant, because until we have a category for short-armed, small-footed swimmers, there is no category crossing to be concerned about. One can, I suppose, lobby for a short person’s NBA" (Under 6-foot etc), but even in scale, these protections are not afforded because they’re small compared to what males have over females. The best small-footed swimmer (size 9 or lower?), for instance, is not beaten by thousands and thousands of “big foots" So they are unnecessary & unnecessarily complex. So please, lay off spurious analogies. Rather use weight classes in boxing and see if it works if “natural advantage” of weighing 109kg can be allowed into a category for under 70kg. Classes create meaning, so don’t wipe out lines

Ross Tucker

Some snippets from the Ross Tucker thread I found particularly interesting in the context of this thread:

The dividing line between males (for the purpose of sport, those who get this T benefit) and females (those who do not) is essential. Without it, women’s sport loses integrity and sport begins to reward things that do not matter (like would happen if weight classes in boxing were ignored for some people who argued “I’m naturally heavier, I should be allowed to fight down in weight”. So WA have a sound principle - at CAS, they argued this really well, actually. It was a strong physiological position. Their research & policy didn’t match its strength (9/)

The other objectionable thing about it is that it creates a situation where a healthy young athlete, with no desire for change and no medical need, is compelled to seek a doctor who’ll prescribe drugs with risk of harm in order to sport. The doctors were rightly concerned about medical ethics for this reason. It even became a point raised by medical organisations, advising doctors not to implement. So again, the issue (for me anyway) is not with the principle of it, but rather its implementation. There’s almost a sense in which the “fix” through drugs makes the policy ‘untenable’, but it’s ironic that this “fix” is offered as a way to be more inclusive (right or wrong, of course). In any event, WA have made a strong physiological case, and the courts have now agreed twice, on the basis of fairness, and now it remains (12/…)

All in all, a situation without solution, but for a principle of biological sex’s impact on performance, and the defence of women’s sport integrity, it’s right. For policy creation and integrity of science in governance, it’s a disaster.

I'm suggesting (with no evidence) that it's possible that Semenya and the other 2 could have consciously tried to avoid looking like that - as if they're in a totally different race. No sign the Connecticut pair worry about that.

CS’s wife is pregnant with their first child at the moment. I’ve done some reading and apparently people with 5Ard can father children by extraction of sperm. Be interesting how that plays out.

The thing is this is the one case where I am happy to call her a woman and use she/her

I have no idea why you would say that. Caster Semenya identifies as male, wears male clothing, displays male characteristics & completely feels comfortable in a male role and only identifies as female when competing* on the track.

*The word competing is used sarcastically as there really was no competition when a biological male knowingly ran in a women’s event.

Semenya is a mediocre male athlete who stole medals, sponsorships & acclaim from female athletes over a long period of time.

mobile.twitter.com/Scienceofsport/status/1303715438988349447

Ross Tucker is usually a sensible voice.

A man, born with a mal-formed penis is not a woman.

I don't care if a mistake was made on their birth certificate. I don't actually care if they were socialised and live "as" a woman (whatever the hell that means).

Women's sports are for women.

By all means have a careful debate about women with DSDs that confer an unfair advantage over other women. But we need to stop all the bloody handwringing about "kindness" and "niceness", and pronouns and preferences.

This shite makes me so bloody angry.

I'd agree with you except for the fact that when you see videos/interviews of CS they are very obviously and overtly presenting as a socialised male.

I didn't know that, it does change things.

Semanya peaked transed me. He lives as a man his preferred prononouns except on the field are male. He married his wife dressed as a man yet was allowed to steal women's prizes, funding, publicity and sponsorship for a decade after knowing his chromosomes. I'd be quite happy to use she BTW should he ask me to but all I read shows me that he prefers he. Except when stomping on women.

The whole bloody lot of them are cheats and sports reporters are in on it. Just read the comments from Rick Broadbent in the Times on this. I posted some comments, not deleted due to their policy but I think because my comment said that he should do his bloody research or go pick up his P45. I'd posted it under one of his comments and that comment along with a few other comments has gone.

Arse, Arse, Arse

I'd agree with you except for the fact that when you see videos/interviews of CS they are very obviously and overtly presenting as a socialised male.

*article

I remember a couple of years ago an Arctic me in the Sunday Times about sporting bodies deliberately searching out children/teens with DSD’s for competition purposes.

@OhHolyJesus No, but if someone puts some ideas together I'll also write

The thing is this is the one case where I am happy to call her a woman and use she/her.

I agree that physically she's male, but no-one would have known this until puberty. So she would have been socialised as female.

The person I know with a similar condition started taking oestrogen aged about 16/17. I wouldn't expect to suddenly refer to her as male even if that is what she is genetically.

Having said all that I do think that CS shouldn't be in the women's races, as her physical advantage is unfair.

I remember finding out about the Rio Trio I call them, and being absolutely astounded

Rio Trio - I'm going to remember that!

You are correct - why was this not news at the time?

The media are utterly complicit in covering this up.

The media have been utterly spineless and complicit. Such a betrayal of the female athletes who have lost out over the years.

I'm wondering whether there has been an agreement made, perhaps as a result of the threat of legal action, amongst media outlets to refer to CS as she/her/woman/female. I'm speculating but it does seem odd that this has been going on for so long and is so widespread. I don't know of a single mainstream media outlet that has gone off course and reported the truth.

It says a lot about the state of our journalisms quite frankly.

I remember finding out about the Rio Trio I call them, and being absolutely astounded.

I'm pondering a letter to IPSO and OFCOM.

Anyone here done this already?

I agree with the OP. A person who may be rare or even unique, but still the correct outcome in my opinion.

Why does anyone feel sorry for people in these circumstances?

I don't get it either, CS has known since (at least) 2009 that CS has XY chromosomes and internal testes. I don't feel sorry for CS in regards to sport career on any level - CS has been gaming the system and stealing places from women. CS appears to despise women so I don't see how CS thinks they are empowering women (it is just a PR ploy IMO) by cheating as a male in women's sport.

Why is not empathy reserved for the women who lost out on podiums and sponsors as a result?

Well I guess because we are THE support humans as decided by men that believe they require and are entitled to our kindness and mothering so they can be their best so of course we must play second fiddle to the benefit of the males.

Sport seems to be more and more... man sport and non-man sport. I mean let's just spell woman/women womxyn considering we are merely a feeling - undefinable except when a man is in the room - we need the menz to tell us what we are because we are merely a concept/feeling/idea. Schrodinger's cat, because we don't know what we are or that we actually exist until a man 'opens the box'.

Barracker (?) was right. Pronouns are rohypnol. Nowhere has it been better illustrated than in the case of Caster Semenya. Her, her, her. She, she, she.

The media have been utterly spineless and complicit. Such a betrayal of the female athletes who have lost out over the years.

Meanwhile, for those who watch sport and apply Occam's razor, the truth has been perfectly obvious from the outset, courtesy of nothing more than a pair of eyes.

And I do believe the race card was played in this case to the highly detrimental effect of women. This is now a recurring theme fitting to the timescale BovaryX describes.

Given the controversy around them, I can imagine there being team orders, even among the 3 of them, to not look too out of place - like those boys competing in Connecticut

I did not know that about the Connecticut lads. Another layer of deceit.

I fancy that as a strapline, I am not a bigot for saying No to a man

It’s a travesty that Semenya has been allowed to compete for so long.

I have genuine compassion for people with DSDs but they are either male or female as demonstrable by testing. Facts aren't cruel or unkind they just are.

Exactly.

I'd also observe how "kind" people are to women who have lost out on medals and the resultant financial rewards that not only ensure the fiscal stability to compete at an elite level but employ the best trainers to ensure career longevity etc.

The expectation is always that women should support the achievements of men even to their own disadvantage.

What's changed in this particular debate is that we are now bigots for saying no.

The simple fact is that CS has known they are male since (at least) 2009 and like other athletes with the same condition exploited their circumstances to gain fame and money at the expense of women.

Why does anyone feel sorry for people in these circumstances?

Why is not empathy reserved for the women who lost out on podiums and sponsors as a result?