Caster Semenya has lost appeal

I feel really sorry for her. I’m not sure the right decision was made.

Just googled the Rio trio and am now profoundly gloomy about the state of women’s rights worldwide. Can’t quite believe that no major news outlets covered this. Gold, silver, bronze in the 800m to women with male chromosomes, and who went through male puberty - HOW IS THAT NOT NEWS???? Ugh.

I liked the goats as well rufus

Correct descion about Semenya

About time as well

The Rio trio.

All the bollocks about levels of testosterone as sporting classes will be swept away once even the most woke of people realise the very real advantages male bodies have in many sports.

The wokest of woke already know the very real advatages of the male body, and simply don;t care and think wome should shut up as they are being mean and bad losers. I sadly, cannot see this changing ever. That lot will never ever put women first, ever.

I'd better add the caveat that I have no idea whatsoever about parentage or who supplied the sperm in that particular pregnancy referred to above either. Although it said in Wiki that In general, individuals with 5-ARD are capable of producing viable sperm'.

It does seem a bit unusual to be stating that someone who runs and wins women's races are of a cohort that are generally capable of producing viable sperm. According to Wiki.

Also none of the 800m winners being female is just ridiculous, unfair and fucking insane, to be quite honest. Why this is not an outrage is beyond me. Though not really..I know why its not an outrage of course. Same reason the Caster thing is muddied in the pres and still being made out t be oh so unfair as shes definitely a woman who just has unusually high testosterone Other women are being unfair and bad losers

I would also note that I don’t think Semenya should be allowed to compete in any women’s sport, be that the 200m as attempted, or a women’s football team as attempted

I agree with this. Also did not know it was something long known, I also assumed it was only discovered recvently, maybe my sympathy is misplaced.

Its a wonder none of these males don't seem to want to compete in womens marathons. Is it marathons where female people outrank men? Something to do with endurance, or so I read on here once anyway,, it only ever seems to be in stuff that male has an advantage..odd.

From that Daily Mail article posted a while back - repeatedly stopped from playing sports with girls as a teenager because of "rough" behaviour. So I'm adding "treated girls at school like shit" to the list.

With regard to sperm production in those with the 5a- Reductase Deficiency, this is on Wiki. Since the gonad tissue develops into testes ....... may be able to create sperm. Male fertility can still be possible if viable sperm is present in the testes and is able to be extracted. In general, individuals with 5-ARD are capable of producing viable sperm.

Also, (from Wiki) some individuals may have a micropenis, (which may undergo enlargement during puberty) which may be capable of ejaculations as well as erections, but may be of insufficient size for penetrative sexual intercourse.

Blinkin' heck. There is a lot on the internet these days!

Good discussion of this on Times Radio now.

Being open about Semenya having a DSD. Discussing the importance of a level playing field for women.

1 in 1000 Olympic athletes have CAIS compared to 1 in 20,000 of general population.

I’ve never seen it confirmed Chand has CAIS?

Yes, Duttee Chand would be the classic example - CAIS, phenotypically female (though lacking ovaries and uterus, I think - but no testes of any significant sort either), no advantage from male puberty.

CAIS is not necessarily that common in female sport. Most athletes are as I understand it severely PAIS, rather than CAIS. But they have some response to testosterone. And are overrpresented compared to wider population.

What 😳

I missed that...cos goats

Yes, me too . I enjoyed that bit of the article, though I was a bit at the photograph of her seemingly having all her clothes adjusted by some man. It's a very odd photograph.

I got distracted by the goats there albus

I'm another who argued furiously for CS when this story first broke back in 2009, but now have gone full circle. Having said that, I had no idea about parentage, but googling gave me this completely baffling headline:

runningmagazine.ca/the-scene/caster-semenya-olympic-champion-and-soon-to-be-mother/

But what I was getting at was - how do you decide in the more grey areas? Does an XX person with a translocated SRY gene compete as male or female? Does a person with XY but CAIS and who in all other respects appears as a normally-developed female compete as male or female? You can't in isolation use T-levels, chromosomes, presence of SRY gene, specific organs, etc to tell - it needs to be if someone has gone through an at least partial male puberty, but given that that can be partial, how do you measure it? It certainly CAN be complicated, even if it is not in the case of most DSDs, and I don't think there is likely to be any single deciding factor that you could use in these cases to distinguish between the categories.

Yes, Duttee Chand would be the classic example - CAIS, phenotypically female (though lacking ovaries and uterus, I think - but no testes of any significant sort either), no advantage from male puberty.

Interestingly, following the history of Chand and Semenya shows why there isn't a "one size fits all" answer. After Semenya's early successes legislation was brought in to force athletes to lower their testosterone which Semenya did for a number of years (during which the medals dried up). Then Chand brought a case against the athletics authorities on the grounds that she was being forced to take medication with potential side effects when (because she had CAIS) there was no effect from the medication. The court of arbitration found in her favour, and that ruling covered Semenya as well, who promptly came off the androgen blockers and started winning by a country mile.

I suppose we could sacrifice the careers of athletes like Chand for the greater good - just exclude anyone who wasn't straightforwardly genotypically and phenotypically female. But it's not obvious that this is a defensible answer.

But what I was getting at was - how do you decide in the more grey areas? Does an XX person with a translocated SRY gene compete as male or female? Does a person with XY but CAIS and who in all other respects appears as a normally-developed female compete as male or female? You can't in isolation use T-levels, chromosomes, presence of SRY gene, specific organs, etc to tell - it needs to be if someone has gone through an at least partial male puberty, but given that that can be partial, how do you measure it? It certainly CAN be complicated, even if it is not in the case of most DSDs, and I don't think there is likely to be any single deciding factor that you could use in these cases to distinguish between the categories.

The interesting bit was that they stated she has benefited from additional testosterone since puberty

So Caster has fathered a child, and has made it plain in interviews that he identified with boys from childhood. Caster is biologically and socially male. The only wonder about this situation is that it's gone on so long.

He should have his medals taken off him. Just like they have done in other sports for cheating.

Sometimes the most obvious answer is the correct one. It’s not incredibly complicated, political maybe but not that complicated.

"I think DSDs need to be treated on a case-by-case basis for this reason. For instance, I think there's a documented case where the SRY gene somehow got translocated onto the X chromosome, resulting in a person who was chromosomally XX but because of the presence of the SRY gene developed testes and typically male genitalia (and was able to father children). Similarly, someone with a malfunctioning SRY gene can be chromosomally XY yet develop normal female genitalia and a uterus (albeit with non-functioning ovaries). (NB, Semenya is neither of these - she has 5ARD, and internal testes).

But in assessing this case-by-case the question should always be "has this person got the advantages (or part of the advantages) conferred by male puberty or not?" Not "how were they socialised from birth?"

Yes, this
That's what I was trying to get at earlier - how can this be measured? Is there an objective way? Chromosomes isn't enough. Presence or absence of SRY gene (regardless of chromosomes) doesn't seem to be adequate, if there is also variability in androgen sensitivity - how to measure that? Does someone XX with a translocated SRY gene develop as an otherwise normal male? (And if so, does that make them female but with a 'natural' genetic advantage?) Does an XY male with complete androgen insensitivity develop in a way that is otherwise indistinguishable from females, or does the SRY still confer advantages? Is there some quantitative or qualitative scale for measuring this? I think that looking at it on a case by case basis is the only way, but still incredibly complicated.

With Semenya's condition sperm might or might not be produced in the testes, and there further can be obstruction in the various ducts. If there are no sperm germ cells there can be no sperm and a donor would be required.
I'm not sure that that is something they would discuss either way - clearly Caster cannot become pregnant as has no female reproductive structures, and Violet Raseboya has normal female reproductive structures