Single sex spaces

[quote scotsheather]At the same time, I really don't want to be walking into an open plan men's locker room wearing a frock.

twitter.com/FionneOrlander/status/1196512801545752576/photo/1[/quote]
Fionne is a legend

Thank you Datun brilliantly said.

Do you have any idea what that feels like? To know that the country you live in has allowed a law like that to be implemented? And sees absolutely nothing wrong with it. In fact are claiming it's progressive.

That women have to go to court, and stand in front of any number of judges, to say that they don't want to touch a paedophile's genitals, ffs.

And are even reduced to invoking their husband, and him saying that their religion forbids it. A patriarchal religion that restricts them at every turn. They have to use that to prevent some random pervy bloke from forcing them into intimate touching. Their own boundaries, consent, words are utterly meaningless. The law says so.

It's not some tiny dot on your imaginary piece of paper. It's a wholesale attack on women. The fact that to you it is irrelevant, says it all really.

Milad, genuinely curious, is your position that the woman challenging the Garrick club right to do so because you do not agree with that sort of single sex space? But you do accept that single sex provision has it's place?

I love how Fionne Orlander calmly demonstrates how things could be.

• On this case - the original post - yes I think it is worrying. There is an exemption in the Equality Act for single sex clubs. The claimant is arguing (as I understand it) that the Garrick is a service provider as it provides services to club members & their guests - so not within the exemption. If this argument is upheld it seems to me to have the potential to significantly undermine the exemption for all clubs.

I don't see why. This is not a case of single sex space or services - women guests are allowed, but they can't be members. There are some areas and functions they're not allowed in - so then perhaps the question is whether that exclusion is based on sex or membership - is the only difference between a male and female guest that the latter could never become a member?

Milady I no longer use my local pool because the changing rooms are open plan & last time I went (well before Covid!) I found myself alone in the changing room with a male bodied person, who identifies as a woman (known locally) who was recording in the large mirror (which shows the whole room) on his phone. I found it distressing and humiliating.

On this case - the original post - yes I think it is worrying. There is an exemption in the Equality Act for single sex clubs. The claimant is arguing (as I understand it) that the Garrick is a service provider as it provides services to club members & their guests - so not within the exemption. If this argument is upheld it seems to me to have the potential to significantly undermine the exemption for all clubs.

I think men are perfectly entitled to single sex spaces, in exactly the same way women are.

It sounds like you are coming from the same page as us. I honestly understand why you would feel uncomfortable in both the ladies and the gents and there does need to be more options where you can feel comfortable. It shouldn’t be hard to include an inclusive third space so that you have an option.

At the same time, I really don't want to be walking into an open plan men's locker room wearing a frock.

twitter.com/FionneOrlander/status/1196512801545752576/photo/1

Yaniv is by no meams the only trans woman demanding they use female spaces.

I have seen or spoke to so many online demanding single sex spaces be removed, but cant think of one who wanted additional unisex spaces.

But that one person used the laws in their country to issue multiple litigations against women of various nationalities (they're racist) who didn't want to have this person in their home, when they were by themselves, and perform intimate waxing that they were not trained for and just didn't want to do. They advertised their services for women.

Many women sent the money asked for to not go to court. Women who were not well off.

The 'authorities' there were very reluctant to look into it until pressed. Didn't want to tell anyone how many women had had this done to them.

That was the result of the law. Harm to multiple women. Many just closed their businesses.

Saying oh well it's one person isn't good enough. A law which allows this is not a good law.

In that same country a rape crisis org who were women only had funding withdrawn.

Here we have had intact male rapists in women's prisons. Funding for services is dependent on opening them up etc.

Thing is that transpeople's experience is different. I would be all for specialist services. I would get behind that 100% and they would give better outcomes for all users.

Women had to fight for the things we have, to enable us to participate in public life (toilets being an obvious example) and services to help us when no one was interested. We set them up ourselves.

I genuinely don't understand why stonewall etc aren't spending their money on lobbying for trans specific stuff given that their experience is just not the same as men and women who aren't trans. That makes no sense to me.

We're not out to upset people and invade spaces. We just want to get on with our lives like everybody else.

You may very well not be, OP, but have you been on Twitter lately?

Bog standard!

Fucking autocorrect!

Big standard.

'I don't know where this obsession with males entering women's facilities comes from. Most trans women, including myself, would be absolutely mortified by the prospect of entering a changing room where women are undressed. Because, well, biology.'

A large minority of men are very very keen to do this indeed. Because, well. Biology.

Spying on women taking their clothes off was a standard haha how funny thing in big standard TV and films until fairly recently.

Spying in real life is really common.

Most women have had experiences with fucking creepy men more than once since they were girls.

Thing is. No one is interested in this. We go on about it all the time but when women say well this that the other. Normal. All the men are oh no! Really? And then forget all about it...

Men only things with women not caring at all.

Gay gyms (men only)
Round our way we have dad and baby things (or used to before the cuts). The men got bacon sarnies. Women's things you get a cup of tea. Wouldn't mind a bacon sarnie but women aren't fussed at the existence of these groups
We have an older men breakfast get together thing locally
I would imagine various support groups are single sex
If men wanted stuff like a men only hour at the local pool or a gym I can't imagine women complaining! Men do about women having an hour a week though...

The 'old boys club' is still operating. It used to be worse. Women were shut out of government. Business. Literally. We have had to fight to get ourselves into the room. At the table. And still it goes on.

Women have wanted in to the male institutions that held the power.

This new thing seems to focus on toilets, changing, rape crisis centres. Stuff like wax my balls (can we mention that?). Places which are sex specific because of vulnerability.

That's really really different.

The interesting thing with eg men getting a woman only hour at a swimming pool shut down. They never want a men only hour. They just don't want women to have one. This is the sort of shit women have been up against forever.

I think Milady it comes from the vast numbers of people who seem to be loudly demanding the right to access women’s spaces. They are quite noticeable on social media if you want to take a look?

I appreciate that you don’t so the third spaces solution would work for you? As it has been discussed a number of times it seems that this option would acceptable to a number of people.

Bannatine gyms don’t allow this. Their changing rooms are by sex.

I’ve just seen the Virgin Gyms thing Serenity - strange that it is fine for a 9 year old boy to use the men’s changing rooms on his own but it’s too dangerous for a fully grown person who was also born with a penis.

Does the gym have the right to assume that the 9 year old boy doesn’t identify as a girl?

Do places like gyms assume any apparent male that enters the women’s facilities is self declaring as female or would they expect the trans person to ask permission to use the facilities of their choice? Does anyone have any direct experience of this as staff for eg?

I suppose "unisex" areas would become male by default. Any that aren't specifically female only is not a safe space for women. Most men wouldn't be fussed however.