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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Don't understand how someone can be transgender? This man explains it all!

215 replies

WeeBisom · 05/09/2020 19:12

There's a Facebook post doing the rounds that promises to explain transgender identity. Unfortunately the explanation is very poor and just leaves me with more questions. Seriously, this is the best they can do? I'm going to break this thing down.

Our helpful guide is a "cis" man. And his basic premise is he FEELS like a man but he doesn't know why! He doesn't like any stereotypical guy stuff! (I find it really funny that he says he likes music, cooking and the arts, all things which are incredibly male dominated.) Ok, but I don't think activities ought to be gendered anyway. You do you. You're still a bloke if you like knitting.

But then he tells us it's not physical either. He has this man feeling, but it's not because he has a penis. He then tells us that if you put his brain in a robot body his 'essence" would still "feel male'. He then informs us he has an acute lack of imaginative power and "literally" cannot imagine what being any other gender would feel like. And this is supposed to persuade me that being trans is a real thing.

The problem with running thought experiments, like the brain transplant scenario, is that you take the risk of others just simply not sharing your intuition. And this is what has happened here. If you put my brain in a robot body, god knows how I would feel. God even knows if it would still be me in any meaningful sense. I'm very much like David Hume in that I don't get the impression I have a 'me' "essence." I don't think my personality or 'self' is intrinsically gendered. And more to the point...the biggest conflict is this guy super strongly 'feel's male (so much he can't even imagine what it would be like to be female!) and I don't share this feeling at all. I don't 'feel' female at all. I find it very easy to imagine being in a male body. There is just an irreconcilable clash, here. He has a lack of imagination and a very strong feeling he labels 'male'. I have a good imagination and zero gender feelings. So, er , how is he supposed to persuade me?

He then tells me that he's a man but he has no clue WHY he's a man.He surmises he is a man because "of something ephemeral." Well, now we are just getting into theology. I have deeply religious friends who are baffled at my atheism. It is so confusing to their worldview that some of them even think I do think God exists but I choose to deny his existence. And when I ask them why they believe in God they just know. They can't point to anything rational or tangible, or even coherently explain it - they feel it. But unless you share these deep special feelings there can be no persuasion. There's nothing rational here - no evidence, no argumentation, no logic. Just an appeal to inexplicable feelings.

Don't understand how someone can be transgender? This man explains it all!
Don't understand how someone can be transgender? This man explains it all!
OP posts:
StrangeLookingParasite · 07/09/2020 07:52

Seeing as being a trans man earlier in the thread didn't exist

Please stop lying.

midgebabe · 07/09/2020 07:47

Everyone should be able to live as themselves without treatment ( if you need treatment -then you are not being allowed to live as you but are trying to persuade people to see you differently so that you can live as you )

You should not deny what your body is, nor ask others to do so nor be expected to do so

feminism 101 in my book

Winesalot · 07/09/2020 03:58

The problem is we are expected to believe that if someone feels like something then they ARE that thing.

To me, this is the issue. That this is being written into law. That people who question this ‘feeling’ are hateful.

If people aren’t denying biology, exactly why should transwomen expect to be called women? and have the rights that women need due to their biology?

Because they feel they are women? And that everyone else must act as if they too believe they are exactly that. Not a transwoman. But a woman.

In fact, if twitter was real life, they insist people believe they are ’female’ and all that entails. And most of the time, it seems, it is because they believe that they don’t feel ‘male’ therefore must be the other sex.

Instead of just feeling like a human with male sex characteristics but looking, dressing, having interests that are unique to them.

BlackWaveComing · 07/09/2020 03:17

@Quaagars

No such thing as c s*

For you.

Onus is on you, the one making the extraordinary claim, to prove c*s is a material, verifiable thing. The onus is not on me to accept it.
Quaagars · 07/09/2020 03:01

No such thing as c s*

For you.

WeeBisom · 07/09/2020 02:50

The problem is we are expected to believe that if someone feels like something then they ARE that thing. But I don’t see any reason why I should accept that. I think if a man feels like a woman then that doesn’t make him a woman. I’ve never been given a good explanation why feelings about this override reality.

OP posts:
BlackWaveComing · 07/09/2020 02:46

No such thing as c*s.

You're expecting us to accept your woo terms before continuing the discussion.

No.

.

Quaagars · 07/09/2020 02:36

Why are you bringing up things on here that no one else ever would
Eg electric shock treatment

I was just curious as to what would be acceptable
Seeing as being a trans man earlier in the thread didn't exist
Then people said you could be trans, but only as gender non conforming people, always still knowing your own biology and that's all there is.
Seems that's not the case for c * s or trans people though.
Just wondered what else there was if people can't easily be c * s or trans, what else should they do?
What other solutions are they?
As it's not a case of "just go play with dolls or trucks", sometimes you're a girl who loves playing with trucks/Lego/whatever the hell else is deemed boys stuff but still feel girl inside.

Was just wondering

NiceGerbil · 07/09/2020 02:17

I know exactly who I am. I always have.

Others imposed lots of stuff on me that i was deeply uncomfortable with. They refused to accept who I was or even try to find out. Gender was enforced.

I would like to ask you a question or 2.

Why are you bringing up things on here that no one else ever would?
Eg electric shock treatment.

If you believe biology exists, then don't you think that male and female have different needs in terms of medicine, privacy, safety, and equality of opportunity eg in sport?

No one here has any issue with a person who feels X inside, wants to dress or be called whatever they like. All for it.
The issue is when they feeling over rides biological reality.

Not much else to say?

Interesting.

DixieFlatline · 07/09/2020 02:10

@Quaagars

Be gender non-conforming. Be a butch lesbian in sensible shoes. Or a straight woman with no makeup short hairs, unisex clothes and a job in engineering, call yourself Bob if you want

What if you know you're not gender non conforming, that you're not a lesbian or a straight woman with no make up and short hair?
(Not sure where being a straight woman with short hair and unisex clothes and likes engineering has to do with anything, all those perfectly fine things for women to do or be!) None of that makes you any less of a woman.

What if you know you're the Messiah?
Quaagars · 07/09/2020 02:05

It's not women on here who are pushing 'cis'

No, but it's what the OP is about.

According to stonewall I'm trans. Why do you have nothing to say about my personal struggle with gender incongruence?

OK, if you're struggling with yourself and have difficulty knowing where you fit in, what you are, fair enough, you know if you're genuinely trans or not, not me.
Not much else to say really! Hope you find out who you are, what you are soon for your own peace of mind

NiceGerbil · 07/09/2020 01:57

It's not women on here who are pushing 'cis'.

You haven't responded to any of my posts about my experience of sex/ gender role.

If you genuinely care about trans people why don't you have anything to say about what I have shared? I've been open and shared really personal stuff. According to stonewall I'm trans. Why do you have nothing to say about my personal struggle with gender incongruence?

OldCrone · 07/09/2020 01:50

Seems can dress as you like, do as you please, as long as you accept you will only ever be cs and nothing else*

Why? Hardly anyone is cs. If you don't identify as cs, you're not c*s, so why should anyone have to 'accept' that they are?

Quaagars · 07/09/2020 01:45

Yes, but doesn't work if you're trans

Why not?

See the bit you cut off

You presumably mean dress as you want only if you accept you aren't trans?

Seems can dress as you like, do as you please, as long as you accept you will only ever be c * s and nothing else

NiceGerbil · 07/09/2020 01:43

My identity as a person was denied.

You see. Natural allies. Current TRAs are fucking it up for women and for trans-sexuals.

OldCrone · 07/09/2020 01:41

Yes, but doesn't work if you're trans

Why not?

NiceGerbil · 07/09/2020 01:41

I have always felt like a person.

I'm a feminist because society did not (ever) recognise that.

This is non trivial for a lot of women. To be seen as a person first, rather than a girl/ woman first and all that comes with that.

Quaagars · 07/09/2020 01:39

Erm

Live as themselves and trans, obviously!

How can they though, if people discriminate against them or say they don't exist/must be deluded/mentally ill/etc?

Fuck gender role. Everyone is free to dress/ enjoy etc what they want
Yes, but doesn't work if you're trans
You presumably mean dress as you want only if you accept you aren't trans?

NiceGerbil · 07/09/2020 01:38

Ah. Quaagers has invoked Alex Drummond.

Expanding the bandwidth of what it means to be a woman.

The progressive thing for Alex to do would be to expand the bandwidth of what it means to be male.

OldCrone · 07/09/2020 01:36

What if you know you're not gender non conforming, that you're not a lesbian or a straight woman with no make up and short hair?

Are you trying to say 'what if a woman knows she's a man'?

WeeBisom · 07/09/2020 01:33

"So for those who do have the internal sense, should they just pretend to be something they're not to appease what everyone else sees as "normal"? To "fit in?"

The interesting question here is to what extent someone's inner feelings about who, or what, they are should be indulged in reality. Some people have very strong feelings that they are Jesus Christ, but they can very end up in a hospital getting treatment to rid them of these feelings. Certainly we don't treat someone as the Messiah just because they feel like it.

What I gather with gender identity is that if someone who is male actually feels like they are female, then we should treat them as if they are female and give their feelings the highest amount of respect. In fact, some are arguing that if on has these internal female feelings that is sufficient to actually make them female.

My problem with this is: I have zero issue with letting people dress or present in any way they want. If a male wants to be super feminine he can go ahead. But I don't get why this also extends to believing he is literally a female.Usually we say that if feelings strongly conflict with reality that reality wins.

OP posts:
Quaagars · 07/09/2020 01:32

Be gender non-conforming. Be a butch lesbian in sensible shoes. Or a straight woman with no makeup short hairs, unisex clothes and a job in engineering, call yourself Bob if you want

What if you know you're not gender non conforming, that you're not a lesbian or a straight woman with no make up and short hair?
(Not sure where being a straight woman with short hair and unisex clothes and likes engineering has to do with anything, all those perfectly fine things for women to do or be!) None of that makes you any less of a woman.

NiceGerbil · 07/09/2020 01:29

The WHO shared the 'women are formless' comments.

They are a very large org with various initiatives supporting, um. Menstruators, cervix havers, at risk of pregnancy people, those who are at risk of beatings or worse if they go out in the 'wrong' attire, people who are at risk of genital mutilation (FGM or circumcision?)..

Womenv and girls are formless, your see. Epheremal. An identity. Nothing more, nothing less.

ItsLateHumpty · 07/09/2020 01:28

I believe at this point Quaagars is only ID’ing as being on this thread due to the amount of (attempted) rebuttals made to arguments nobody is making 🤔

Quaagars · 07/09/2020 01:22

Get your tits out to a girl in school uniform doesn't shout formless, does it.
No, it shouts yes we see you as biologically female.

It's insulting TBH
Yes, agree with that too, of course it is.
Doesn't mean that that's all there is for people whether they're male or female though.

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