Which spaces do non-binary people use?

Shared women’s changing rooms is an ever diminishing facility, but they should be a key part of everyday life.

I agree 100%. I’m sick of being expected to give up anything that a man wants to take from me.

I think the old threads about swimming pool changing rooms are relevant because:

1). They demonstrate that people need unisex facilities for a variety of reasons.

2). They demonstrate that many women need and want to protect single sex facilities, and they were talking about this long before anyone suggested self ID.

Women need more toilet facilities than men though.

As an architect we now often see toilets and changing rooms designed with 3 spaces. 1 unisex, 1 men, 1 women. A recent survey saw increase in the use of unisex which coincides with the growing number of people choosing to transition and allies, those who are not bothered, etc.
Many restaurants, bars, workspaces only have a single toilet which is used by all 3 groups and has to be lockable.

Gardenbird, I think it depends who's talking as to what "non-binary" actually means.

Some people use it to describe anyone who doesn't identify as wholly male or female. But technically, they're referring to male or female as gender identity labels rather than male or female biological sex (because if we're looking at sex and not gender identity then people would be categorised quite differently in accordance with established single-sex spaces). So when non-binary is used in this sense, it includes anyone who doesn't identify as a male or female gender, and includes people (like me) who don't identify as any gender - if pressed I would class myself as agender because I don't identify as being any gender, although it would be rare for me to define myself by the absence of a concept in everyday conversation (in the same way an atheist would only need to identify as such if everyone else is talking about their belief in god, but they don't necessarily have a strong attachment to the identity of 'atheist' outside of a theistic community). But it also includes the people who consciously identify as non-binary specifically.

When those people who consciously identify as non-binary use the term, I feel it has a more specific meaning to them and seems to refer to themselves and others who feel that a positive part of their actual identity is neither male nor female, somewhere in between or both. So it's not just that they're non-binary compared to everyone else who is either male or female, but that they are something distinct from male and female but substantial in itself.

In either sense if the word, though, there are as many different ways for a non-binary gender identity to manifest as there are people in the world.

So in short, no-one knows how to spot a non-binary person, it is the presence of gender identity and the absence of gender identity, it is at once important and insignificant, and the concept is actually perfectly encapsulated by the feel of a stylised perfume advert.

I’m so confused about non binary. Do they often present as the opposite sex (the only non binary person I know of is taking treatment to masculinise their body)? Or do they more often present in an ambiguous way? And if so, how does that more usually manifest?
Hope this doesn’t become another derail but I assume it is useful for everyone to understand the people that the question refers to (unless it’s just me who has no idea).

The sidetrack into children could go on forever, threads about that usually do!

We're talking about adult men here.

In my experience however, most people are pretty understanding re. children in the changing rooms - most mums understand.

This is a topic that has come up frequently on mumsnet.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2995768-Children-of-the-opposite-sex-in-changing-rooms

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1280819-Fed-up-with-boys-in-womens-changing-rooms-at-pool

Not all changing room users are mothers, and not all mothers are happy to share a changing room with male 'tweens'.

The problem is that there is an overlap between the age at which a child might still reasonably need to be accompanied, and the age at which people might feel uncomfortable changing in their presence, particularly if the child looks old for their age or has SN.

To accommodate the needs of both users you need both unisex and single sex provision.

It works the other way too. Men don't necessarily want to take their daughters into men's changing rooms.

I thought 11 was usually the cut off for boys to go into the men's - you could probably allow up to 13 if the boy was particularly vulnerable.

But most boys wouldn't want to change with their mum at that age anyway and are more likely to be out with mates.

I agree 100% with SomeDyke, Alabamawhirly1, and PaleBlueMoonlight about the importance and convenience of women’s communal changing rooms for being comfortable with our bodies and for managing small children. All the leisure centres around here have men’s, women’s and family changing rooms and have had those three options for many years. Are we just particularly fortunate in my area?

The sign on the door. As with most single sex changing rooms an age limit was specified.

oh. I've never seen that anywhere I've ever used. The only stipulation that I've seen is that children under the age of 8 must be accompanied by an adult (no mention of which sex) but maybe it is different in your area. In my experience however, most people are pretty understanding re. children in the changing rooms - most mums understand.

it is totally acceptable to include children of both sexes in the women's changing rooms until you feel that the boys are old enough to feel safe in the Men's.

The sign on the door. As with most single sex changing rooms an age limit was specified.

(I was NOT happy sending my 8 year old son off to a completely different changing room in another part of the building when we went swimming. and many threads on mumsnet illustrate that I am not alone.)
why did you feel the need to do that though Merrymouse? - as has been stated many times on this thread, it is totally acceptable to include children of both sexes in the women's changing rooms until you feel that the boys are old enough to feel safe in the Men's. Women understand the potential risks to unaccompanied children in the Men's changing rooms.

I should apologise if the unicorn comment came across rude, what I mean is I have no issue with personal lifestyle choices but when it has an impact on the wider community we need to be considerate of the general consensus on the matter as well as the potential safety of young people.

I imagine a lot of predators will take advantage of this new way of thinking and prey on vulnerable people where there are no cameras for obvious reasons. It makes me feel very uncomfortable.

@OldCrone @Datun and @MiladyRenata 100% agree. I have no problem with anyone being what they want to be, if someone wants to dress up as a unicorn everyday and say they live in la la land crsck on if that makes a person happy. BUT don't force that on the youth of today. I don't want my daughter getting dressed in a changing room with boys, regardless of how they identify. You're born either male or female, so i guess use the facilities for that gender or use a unisex one.

But when women answer surveys most want to have separate spaces for changing rooms/bathrooms because they feel more secure from male violence, and it is a democracy, you have to do what's best for the majority.

I'm not arguing against provision of single sex spaces - I am saying that some people are genuinely happy to use mixed sex spaces, and that the argument for single sex spaces is weakened if this isn't acknowledged.

"Does your daughter have a right not to see a penis?" doesn't have much affect on someone who has been using mixed sex changing rooms for decades and has never seen anyone's genitals. (I know you haven't argued this, but it is a common argument on twitter).

It's better to explain that some women have clear reasons to need single sex spaces, irrespective of whether anyone else feels comfortable in a mixed sex space.

(I was NOT happy sending my 8 year old son off to a completely different changing room in another part of the building when we went swimming. and many threads on mumsnet illustrate that I am not alone.)

To answers the Ops actual question though I would guess that most non binary people use the female facilities. Female non binary people because they know its the safety's option for them, and male non binary people because they want to let the world know how very special and unique they are. A man wearing lipstick using the mens? Unthinkable 🙄

And whether they want our support or value our take on things or not, we need to stop them from being put in dangerous positions.

Many women are quite happy to use unisex sex facilities. I have been using unisex faciliities for decades, and I have never seen a stranger of either sex naked.

I'm saying there should be a third mixed sex single occupancy option for those who want it merrymouse. Some women will be OK with it, many won't. The ones who won't are likely to be women with additional vulnerabilities, such as a history of sexual trauma or those who observe certain faiths. Single sex male, single sex female, mixed sex single occupancy (Inc baby changing facilities), and disabled, would be genuinely inclusive of everybodies real world needs, in the reality everyone actually lives in. It wouldn't validate anybodies made up subjective interpretation of reality though which is why TRAs will never campaign for it.

If you argue that all services must be single sex, you will always get push back from people who want to use unisex/mixed sex services

But when women answer surveys most want to have separate spaces for changing rooms/bathrooms because they feel more secure from male violence, and it is a democracy, you have to do what's best for the majority.
As a single mum with two boys I never felt a dilemma as to where to take my son's. Of course when they were little they would come with me to the ladies or women's changing rooms and no one cared.

Most successful derail ever?

The easiest and cheapest option is to make all male facilities unisex and keep female and disabled facilities for the people they were intended for. It would also potentially have the advantage of making men behave better towards people who don't conform to a traditional male stereotype - which at the end of the day is what trans people say is the problem of using male facilities

Except this opens up all sorts of uncomfortable possibilities for non binary people because they are still male and female even of they don't like it. And whether they want our support or value our take on things or not, we need to stop them from being put in dangerous positions. Like being female and amongst naked men. Eveb if nine of those men have any intention of being dodgy, the next male she ends up being around whilst vulnerable might not be so pure. And how will she know when its time to back out if shes used ti being around half naked men.

So no, mixed sex single occupancy isn't going to work for women.

The problem is that for many women it does work. I have worked in loads of offices with single occupancy loos, and many cafes only have single occupancy loos.

I would also rather use a mixed sex changing room because I have opposite sex children.

The only argument that makes sense is that in some circumstances single sex facilities and services are necessary, and provision should be protected in law.

If you argue that all services must be single sex, you will always get push back from people who want to use unisex/mixed sex services.