Use pronouns or face dismissal

Drag queens fetishists and attention seekers are not covered by trans.

Ugh, trying to erase trans people and denying their existence. Literal violence right there.

But never let the truth get in the way of a good echo chamber shout on mn.

That backfired, didn't it?

Little tip: gaslighting doesn't work when there's solid evidence in writing, that most of us have seen. You're welcome.

It feels like bullying to force me to reference Karen White as "she"

Women are compelled to refer to a male sex offender as 'she', under threat of losing their job? Yes, that's bullying.

A woman in court is compelled to refer to the male who attacked her as 'she', under threat of contempt of court. Yes, that's bullying. Gaslighting, coercion and bullying.

Would we call that institutional bullying? Is there a term for that?

I know it’s been said many times before, but the vast majority of times gendered pronouns are used it is in the third person, usually in the absence of the person or in writing.

So imagining I had to refer to a colleague in an email... they sound male on the phone, called Bob, I need to consult some kind of wall chart or try to retrieve an email from them to check their pronouns so I don’t misgender them in a passing reference in an email to someone else... who then catches me out and reports back to the person or to management... because otherwise how would they know? Is the next step to extend this to clients or members of the public... will literally everyone have to wear a badge like in Asda, where does it end?

I do think though the miss/Mrs/ms thing has always been a bit of an awkward one, especially as it’s generally considered more polite to call someone Ms Surname rather than by first name, especially if a client/meeting for the first time and they haven’t invited you to use a first name. Whatever you say, you’re often corrected, even trying to use a neutral Ms. “It’s MISS/professor/captain/reverend actually”

In general, most people seem to take these errors in good faith and humour, but I do worry the gender pronoun thing is a new layer of pressure to censor your language out of normal speech patterns you have used all of your life, to avoid offence that might cost your job. How many times have there been articles in the guardian/bbc even where there have been pronoun slip-ups throughout the article?

Bullying is bullying.

Slightly off topics, but many years ago, a colleague converted to Islam and changed his name from Dave to Mohammed. He won an employment tribunal against the company for his co-workers not calling him his new name. Everyone who knew him liked him, and attempted to call him his new name, but we had known him for years as Dave, and often just forgot. It caused a lot of angst and eventually everyone just got to the point if not addressing him at all for fear of offence, it was awful.

Hang on - I'm a teacher, female, & I frequently get called 'sir' (or indeed 'mum') by absent minded students. Am I now entitled to start shouting 'IT'S MA'AM!' & generally going full Hulk smash, then? That could be fun.

Come to that, my housekeeper, whose first language is not English, quite often comes out with sentences like: 'Your friend Miss Bicky I feed him cat because he sick' & I generally only worry about whether it's Victoria, Rebecca - or one of their cats, for that matter - who is ill.

Clearly I should be taking her to task for moggy misgendering. Although, to be fair, I'm basing my TERFy assumptions about Vicky's cat on the fact that she recently had kittens. She might well identify as a trans tomcat for all I know.

It's all just such...total bollocks.

Drag queens fetishists and attention seekers are not covered by trans. But never let the truth get in the way of a good echo chamber shout on mn.

The policy for the particular employer referred to in the OP very much includes attention seekers. It gives a long list of examples, including gems like crossdresser, two-spirit, gender-fluid and neutrois, before referring readers to Stonewall for an even more exhaustive list.

Gender-fluid is particularly troublesome in the context of this policy because how is someone to know where that fluidity sits at any given time?

I don't have too much of a problem with using she, as that word is not based on biology. It's a feminine pronoun, not a female pronoun. If a ship can be a she, I guess a man can, although it could obviously cause confusion.

I wouldn't call him a woman though, because woman is based on biology.

These people (on here) who say "deliberately misgendering/dead naming someone is bullying.."

A question:

How would you go about showing that it was deliberate?

I worked with a man who was a bit... a lot... creepy.

He used to come to my bank of desks and basically letch at one of my staff. He must’ve been on his 40s.

He commented about visiting prostitutes (oh I’m detail) and talk about his lovely daughters (it sounded very seedy) and he generally creeped out the female members of staff (early 20s). I used to tell him to go away and leave her alone.

He was hauled up before HR a few times because of inappropriate behaviour and making female members of staff feel uneasy and creeps out. Nothing ever happened to him.

But hey, these are the days, eh people?

How embarrassing. Fancy being so self righteous about a cause and calling other people bullies without even bothering to educate yourself about the very thing you are supporting.

It does my head in that TRAs have the freedom to be far more transphobic than the gender critical bunch. Especially since gender critical "transphobia" is used as a justification for very harsh "retaliatory" attacks. The hypocrisy and manipulation of this is breath-taking.

My DD has a colleague who sometimes identifies as male and sometimes female. This changes all the time, often repeatedly during the day. They go absolutely nuts if someone uses the wrong pronouns and seems to expect others to just know how they identify from one minute to the next.

Drag queens fetishists and attention seekers are not covered by trans. But never let the truth get in the way of a good echo chamber shout on mn.

Shame on you for being such an awful trans ally. Do better.

www.teni.ie/resources/transvestite-and-crossdressing/

The Transgender Equality Network Ireland says the following

Transvestites ‘dress’ for numerous reasons. Some feel the strong need to express femininity while others might crossdress for artistic expression or erotic enjoyment. However, most people who crossdress generally have no intention of changing their bodies through hormones or surgeries. TENI strives to provide a safe and supportive environment for transvestites (TVs) and their partners as these experiences are part of the trans umbrella.

Drag queens fetishists and attention seekers are not covered by trans.

Are you suggesting that males with AGP aren't really trans? Since this is the reason for transition for most late transitioning males, who are the people who are largely responsible for 'trans' becoming so prominent in recent years, that's quite a statement from you.

I do agree with you that such fetishists shouldn't be put in the same category as vulnerable children and young people who are suffering confusion about the idea that they should have or choose a gender and end up making irreversible changes to their bodies as a result.

Definition so people can judge for themselves

According to Stonewall’s vast definition almost everyone is. Cross dressers are, for example.

I wonder if anyone fired for using English incorrectly in this way could succeed in an unfair dismissal case.