How to not alienate my 13yo?

Another topic to throw into the discussion is football - in the Uk it’s seen very much as a male game - football crowds are overwhelmingly male, the big money is with the men, it’s a career that many little (and not so little!) boys dream of, aspire to and follow. There are women that play and the female professional game is getting a little more recognition these days but compared to the men it’s still seen as a minority thing. Lots of people would also use very male words to describe the game,the players, their skills, their attributes, the followers and so on. If they were the sort of person that was making lists of boys vs girls activities, it would be put into the boys list.

However in the US, soccer (aka football) is very much a girls/women’s game. Players, skills, attributes etc all very much seen as female.

So - let the interesting discussions flow... is it a male or female game? If it is different but correct on each country then if a male football player goes to the US or a female American player comes here - does that mean they should change their gender? And what if they go to s country that doesn’t really play it at all and it’s seen as just a game rather than a boys or girls game?

And what makes this game different from tennis or athletics etc where both men and women are celebrated in their sports much more equally (I know not perfectly equal yet but much better then football). And for something like weightlifting or boxing where the classes change every few kg because small differences make such a difference, if someone puts on a little bit of weight so goes over the class boundary, do you #bekind and let them compete ontheir usual weight category even though they now have a technically illegal advantage or do you make them compete in a different group? How would the others in the group feel if they had to fight and lose to the heavier competitor - would they think I must be kind to them or that it’s being unkind to me? Or is sport intrinsically unkind as the whole point is to create winners and losers?

You get the idea... But doesn’t need to be about TWAW explicitly - a separate discussion that can inform subsequent discussions and help with critical thinking.

Invisible women is a great book with interesting content - probably a bit much to read at 13 bit around the time it was published there were several great articles of varying lengths covering some of the topics covered that would also be interesting to discuss about things that will affect women and transmen but not transwomen - medicine dosages and/or efficacy, PPE that doesn’t protect, office temperature being set for men’s best operating temp not women, higher death rates in car accidents for females in the front seat Vs men because they don’t test on women properly but assume that using a smaller male dummy would work as a passenger (not even a driver!) instead.

Have a look at Debbie Hayton

twitter.com/DebbieHayton?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

Debbie is a trans woman who rejects the TWAW rhetoric.

As he is ASD maybe a series of situations you could look at together

eg If a trans teenager goes to hospital with a broken arm, Peter Tatchel l believes the medical professionals should not ask about any hormone treatments. But, a full medical history includes any operations / treatments / injuries / illnesses. Also some drugs used by trans people can cause bone thinning and making them more prone to broken bones.

What his is opinion?

For some medical investigations the HCP has to take age, sex, and race into account to give accurate results. A trans woman retains male lungs so if the HCP inputs 'female' the results may come back as normal when the person has asthma or another lung condition, but if the HCP enters 'male' then the result is more acurate.

TWAW also silences trans women who want to tell their story. Everyone has a life story and it is a personal choice whether you make that public. Caitlyn Jenner was a man who won olympic gold. If your ds was writing about Jenner's life how would he write about the previous career of Ms Jenner? The TWAW mantra means reporting that a woman won the decathlon, when it isn't a woman's event. This also skews olympic history which excluded women from many events, it was only in 2012 that there were as many events for women as men and where every country sent both male and female athletes.

What about aborted female fetuses in China and India? (and other places) How can they be aborted if sex is 'assigned at birth'.

Karen White - should KW be in a male or female prison? Who needs more 'protection' KW or vulnerable women.

I don't mean go through these all at once, but a discussion, and it has to be a discussion not a lecture, should bring up some interesting points.

I think I would make a clear differentiation between sex and gender/gender identity.

You said your son doesn't think that people can change sex, so he knows that there is a difference between the two. Would he be comfortable with the idea that a transwoman can have a body that is still biologically male, but a female gender identity or feminine gender preferences?

I know that it can be very frustrating to entertain the idea of a gender identity at all (because it's nebulous, badly defined and usually reduces to crude stereotypes). But for kids, "identity" is often about "stuff I like" -- including clothes, music, sports, books, films and peer/friendship groups.

This gets a bit confused when activists compare these fluid, personal identity concepts with a (false) essentialist position that your biological sex determines what you like / are supposed to like. So that if you don't accept the concept of a personal gender identity, you effectively disapprove of people having interests/preferences that don't conform to gendered stereotypes.

If that's where your son is at the moment, he may feel that unless he accepts that a transwoman becomes a biological woman when they transition, that his own exploration of gender is wrong -- and that if you don't completely affirm that TWAW that you disapprove of his choices or are judging him negatively: it feels personal to him.

It sounds like your son has a lot of empathy for people who are not able to express themselves the way they want perhaps because of his experience with his dad getting upset about him using makeup. Maybe one of the things he needs right now, rather than getting in deep on gender theory, is just affirmation that you support him in exploring his clothes/make-up preferences, and that you love him for all parts of who he is not just his gender identity, but all the other things that make him uniquely him.

I have 10 year old diagnosed autistic and 12 year old suspected. They are both GC but my sister and my niece are TWAW. My niece asked me how my daughter would feel if she came out trans due to my views or she wouldn't feel supported. My reply was that my daughter would never be trans as she knows you cannot change sex.
I just don't talk to them now about it as it's not worth it.

I think focus on womens rights, there is always something to comment on, violence etc. In the news or local papers. Why are women targeted? Because of their sex. What about victims of abuse? Vulnerable women in prison? Fairness. I always find Fair Play for Women a good place for people to start.

I would focus on how brilliant it is that he is gender non conforming. But he will get called trans and asked if he is trans so discuss some responses. Autistic children seem very vulnerable to trans ideology and I think it is that black and white thinking.

The 80s were great for this. Pink and blue separations were brought about for marketing purposes so you can discuss this in terms of big business and profit.

My girls want to do 'male' jobs. My 12 year old, wants to be a pilot but is frequently told by peers she can't because she is a girl. Next time a boy tells her that she is going to ask why do I need a penis to control the plane?

On being kind I don't like this because for vulnerable people it opens them up to abuse and manipulation. I'm a domestic abuse survivor and me being kind meant I stayed in that relationship for 14 years.

When my daughter took the Brownie promise I had to talk to her about it because it says put others first, but I disagree you need to look after yourself and make sure you are safe emotionally and physically before putting others first. Putting your own needs first is not selfish it makes you think about who you do help.

My 12 year old daughter is very like me so I was concerned she would be too empathic and as she grows and be manipulated.

Just take the drip drip approach. My 10 year old autistic gets angry when I talk about this subject as it makes her feel so uncomfortable so don't push it.

I've spoken to my 13 year old a lot about freedom of speech, the right to hold unpopular opinion, the legal limits of free speech, cancel culture etc. This groundwork make it easier for us to have tricky conversations

Beamur

I think this is absolutely critical. Unfortunately, I think children and teenagers are not being taught Enlightenment values like freedom of speech and critical thinking. Instead, they are being indoctrinated to believe that there are a rigid set of views which are mandatory and that dissent or even questioning the assertions made by active lobbyists is heresy. These are not secular beliefs, they are religious beliefs and they are being promoted with a kind of fanatical purity which should alarm all of us.

queenofknives
You are right about the authoritarian tendencies of the Robespierre faction. It is quite incredible to behold. It would be laughable that the dictionary definition of woman is deemed in anyway controversial. But there is nothing remotely funny about those enforcing the compelled speech of the Newspeak dictionary.

Some good advice here thank you. I just discovered that 2 years after his ASD diagnosis and after following some autism tweeters and having a 'lovely gentle' TW colleague where his female colleagues have not objected to sharing toilets my early 20s son has now decided TWAW and I'm a Terf. He had formerly grasped some of women's concerns.

We've started the discussion and I've asked him to give me the same courtesy of respecting people's preferred pronouns and how they wish to be addressed and never to call me 'cis' , he argued how could we distinguish between Trans and not and I replied by using 'trans' I wish I'd pointed out that if we need to distinguish TWANW

Today is going to be a much longer trans discussion (I had more concerns about his twitter usage I needed to address so started with the easier discussion). He's older I think I am going to go down the male patterns of offending (and make him aware how much sexual violence there is against women) and take him through some of the TW sex offenders stats as he thinks Karen White was an anomaly. I'm planning to start the discussion by asking him to explain to me how TWAW. My ASD son feels younger than his age, is that normal? With a late diagnosis and my concerns overs the 'trans' pushing at the NAS we haven't had access to any material to help grasp what his diagnosis means for him. He's high functioning.

The one called 'Political and Social Attitudes' is the most comprehensive and personally useful one I've tried.

There are some interesting quizzes on here, including one that looks at how authoritarian your attitudes are. I think it would be really interesting to let your kids have a play around with some of these to get a sense of where their attitudes fall on a political and moral spectrum. (Maybe do them yourself first to check there's nothing inappropriate for your kids - they are aimed at adults and some of the terms might need more explanation.) There were some surprising answers for me - I discovered that my anti-authoritarianism is off the scale, but also that I'm more conservative in some areas than I would have said, and also a lot happier than I thought! They are great prompts for discussion and conversation and might yield some surprising answers. www.yourmorals.org/explore.php

I think 'fair' is a good concept to apply. Never been fans of unconditional kindness here. It works fine with animals, but people can take advantage!

My teenage daughter has some very woke opinions.
She is also very passionate on BLM at the moment and came to me shocked by the idea of Transracialism.
I asked her to explain to me how is it any different at all from a Transwoman claiming to be an actual woman. I said how would you feel about a white person saying they were black claiming awards, opportunities etc that were set up for POC.
I’ve showed her photos of trans women competing in women’s sports and the Karen White travesty.
She’s explained she doesn’t think they can change sex and thinks maybe sports and refuges should be for same sex, so I had to explain she was a ‘Terf’ in TA eyes, and that some women like JKR had been threatened with rape and violence just for saying things like that.
I’ll be honest and say I am quite happy to clearly state my opinions about trans ideology and call someone an Authoritarian if they try and shout me down. Children and family included.

What about the 'fairness' angle? eg. Is it fair that trans women who are stronger, faster etc can compete against women?

I know many people with asd are very b/w about rules and what is fair.

There's lots of approaches to get young people thinking more critically. Since he's concerned about being kind, you could also approach it from an empathy perspective, e.g. Why do you think some women might not like biologically male people calling themselves women? Maybe you can relate it to his autism. Do you think you would feel upset if someone who wasn't autistic said they identified as autistic? What about if they were given extra resources to support them and actually autistic kids lost out? To be honest, though, it sounds like your son is doing okay with it all, but your sister could use some help thinking it all through!

I think there is a real difference in saying to a TW's face "you are not a woman," and discussing the topic in general terms. Discussing childhood obesity is not the same as going up to an overweight child and calling them names. I think the main lesson to teach at the start of the argument is this false equivalence around kindness. It will help his BS meter going forward.

Also, not asking questions you might not like the answer to. Going back to the overweight child analogy, if they were putting people on the spot "I'm so skinny and tiny, aren't I really thin?" they can't always hide from honest answers.

Being kind is often avoiding uncomfortable truths, but if you push people to say comfortable lies, you might hear something you don't like. Whose fault is that? Should we always lie?

I've spoken to my 13 year old a lot about freedom of speech, the right to hold unpopular opinion, the legal limits of free speech, cancel culture etc. This groundwork make it easier for us to have tricky conversations.
I think you're going to have some difficult conversations ahead, but that's part and parcel of parenting teens anyway.
The way I have approached it is talking about why people might want to change sex/gender (she's very clear on the distinction between sex and gender) - personally I think consenting, properly informed adults should be allowed to do this and we have fair laws in this country to protect transgender people from discrimination. I don't think children can properly consent to drugs and surgery though, but I don't think the services we currently have to help dysphoric kids is particularly good.
We also talk about how whilst there are 2 sexes, there's a huge variation within that at how people look and feel about themselves. We are all unique.
We've talked about things like sports, single sex facilities, school, etc and why trans people might want to use certain ones/etc and whether that is fair to others.
I've encouraged her to read up around the topic (with certain precautions as I don't want her to be scared, she is still very young and it's very easy on the internet to see things you can't unsee) and have pointed out that there are different reasons and motivations for the way people behave. Trans is a very encompassing umbrella term.
I'm cautiously optimistic that she is making balanced, carefully thought through opinions. Her peers are pretty relentlessly 'allies' of any given cause, so she is mindful of not wanting to upset or offend anyone.

Yeah best not to bombard a 13 with too much information.

It's better to show consistency over a longer period and drop information here and there without referring to trans at all - when opportunities arise remind him that you love him as he is, that boys and girls or men and women can wear what they like, be interested in any kind of hobby, that stereotypes and roles are silly and outdated, point out good role models - like Prince and David Bowie in music were flamboyant but definitely men (assuming he likes music).

Cultivate an interest in science, especially biology. If there's a topical science article about women's or men's bodies, explain the differences. Even in archaeology you can tell the difference between male and female skeletons - you can point that out next time you're in a museum together or something. Talk about biology in other animals - male and female is an evolutionary mechanism and humans are no exception.

Also teach your son about the importance of critical thinking and skills to determine how ideology and beliefs can be used to control people. Use religion and political ideology as a good teaching aide. Like discuss certain cults vs normal faith groups that do not control their followers. How can you tell the difference?

You don't need to venture into debates about trans stuff at all. It's about identifying patterns and signs about 'healthy' ideas and beliefs, and 'unhealthy' ones.
It's about giving your son the skills to help him navigate the world as he grows up. It takes months and years. You're not trying to 'win' arguments and debates with him. Get him to understand that people disagree about all sorts of things all the time, but can still come to mutual respect and understanding by listening to other perspectives.

Discuss court cases like the Christian bakery that refused to write a message about supporting gay marriage, and won. The importance of free speech, freedom to disagree, freedom to not be compelled etc. It will require you to also be informed and learn about these nuanced issues as well.

Who knows, in a few years as he gets older, he might come to realise the arguments supporting trans ideology are fairly illogical and rubbish anyway.

Oh, and a really useful question to ask is 'what would make that belief or theory false?' You can ask him to ask that about his own opinion or about yours. It's a great question because it forces you to consider the other side. E.g. TWAW could be false IF physical sex is more relevant than a felt sense of identity. Okay, so when might sex be more relevant - what kind of situations? Healthcare, sports? So then it destabilises the original opinion because we can easily establish that in some situations it is false. You can do this with your own opinions and see if they are destabilised or strengthened. It's a really useful exercise and can be fun!

I think it's probably important to be clear that no matter what, people cannot change biological sex. It's just the luck of the draw whether you're born male or female but that doesn't mean you have to behave or look any particular way. I think that's a simple concept to understand. It is pretty black and white! But it sounds like he is open with you about his thoughts and hopefully the trip through puberty will clarify things for him further. The more people look and question this ideology, the closer they will get to the truth. It's not looking or questioning that is the problem!

Most GNC kids turn out to be gay - have you spoken about that with him?

I really do think asking your son to break down what he considers the words 'man' and 'woman' to mean might be helpful. What do men 'do'? What do women 'do'? If the word 'man' doesn't just mean 'adult human male', what other things need to be taken into consideration?

Show him pictures of 17th century men like Charles I, with their longhaired wigs, heeled shoes and frilly clothing. Were these men actually women? Pictures of native American men with long hair and 80s male popstars experimenting with make-up might also help.

Does he think that women should be denied the vote because their 'lady brains' are unable to think things through logically? This was once the case.

In 19th century China little girls used to have their feet 'bound' to make them more attractive. This meant breaking the bones and folding the feet back on themselves, making it very painful for the girl to walk. If the little girl said she had a 'boy' brain, would her parents have allowed her to 'identify' out of this practice? (Spoiler: no they would not.)

He's only 13 so I think JKR's essay, while brilliant, may not contain much resonance for him. I also think at 13 it might be a while before he will understand his own sexuality or identity. I suggest that instead of trying to win the argument you make it clear to him that you love and accept people for who they are, but you also believe in science and the reality of physical bodies. We are animals, after all. You can say that while you think people have the right to express themselves how they choose, society is organised around the fact that there are males and females and to change this to organising around how people feel inside is going to be very difficult. Explain that you don't think boys and girls should have to fit into stereotypes- maybe there are examples in your family where you can look at gender non conforming behaviour? I would try to meet him where he is - think about his hobbies and interests and see if you can make a connection there. I wouldn't ppanic or bombard him with stuff. The best you can hope for initially is to make a space in his mind for doubts and questions. I would say to be relaxed, humorous and chilled out about it all, so it doesn't feel like a huge intense thing. You're not arguing with a TRA, you're talking with your son. You don't have to explain your position in detail even, you can just show you think it's a bit silly. Humour is a great tool but obviously be cautious if your boy is likely to think it's meanness.