New York Times report acknowledges biological men in women's sports is unfair

One of the highest rated comments was, "either you believe in science or you don't. Trans women are not genetically the same as biological women..." that's the crux of majority of the comments.

sport is THE issue on which the whole TWAW debate rests

Is this true? I can see lots of people saying TWAW except for sport, and they don't seem to have a problem with the cognitive dissonance. But I suppose this whole issue is clarifying that a male body remains a male body, even with artificial hormones, surgery, etc. Hmm. Interesting ... it does force some pretty blunt arguments about size, muscle mass, strength, etc into the argument.

Yes I've noticed that in reports about mountain climbing. Women are much tougher and more likely to survive at high altitudes.

The key to remember in all this is that sport is THE issue on which the whole TWAW debate rests.

Any acknowledgement that TW are in anyway different to women means that TWAW is invalid. Therefore any suggestion that TW retain any sporting advantage over women, or that there should be a third category in sports means the whole house of cards comes falling down.

Nothing less than total capitulation will do for them.

Why I posted this link was I couldn't access the NYT's one. It didn't seem open to casual readers. Will have to check again and see if I cant access it.

I think it must be one that allows a very limited number of free articles per month.

I remember the unpc jokes over the female athletes of the USSR competing in the Olympics in the 60s and 70s.
It may force reality on many if the more competitive nations just field teams of men identifying as female for every women’s event.

On the one hand we get reports that by only testing medicine of men it puts women at danger, and then the next moment they seem to be saying there's no real difference very good point!
I do wonder whether it will take teams being made up solely of transwomen, all Olympic places and all medals being won by transwomen, for people to realise that the set of people women's sport was set up for, it's no longer servicing

Well, the comments on that article certainly have given me pause.

Generally speaking, I think of TWAW as having been resoundingly accepted in liberal/democrat America. But those are considered, nuanced comments supporting women's rights. And the ratio is massive.

Blow me down.

It still baffles me that men are being allowed into women’s sport against public opinion, against rationality and against sanity. How is it even a ‘debase’?

Surely there is a simple remedy? Presumably women concerned about competing against transwomen will refrain from doing so. No competitors, no competition

I saw this suggested on Twitter, and there were a lot of comments stating that it wouldn't be possible due to sponsors (for current athletes at least.) It seems like their hands are really tied, but I don't know enough about how that side of it works.

Surely there is a simple remedy? Presumably women concerned about competing against transwomen will refrain from doing so. No competitors, no competition.

I'd say it's more a case of some people thinking that women have got above themselves and it will suit everyone if they're taken down a peg or two MondayYogurt. Added to that is envy of women actually being women.

I think the thought of women standing lower on podiums, and the fantasy of women being pushed, blocked, bent, crushed, or otherwise physically forced into submission on the sports field holds a lot of pleasure for many people. To finally put us in our place, under the heel.

Of course this also applies to putting trans women in women's prisons. It's that delicious extra punishment isn't it? The stupid women broke the law, who cares if they get a bit of extra punishment, they deserve it. I expect there's a whole porn genre waiting to be made along those lines.

Women have better endurance on average. I think it’s fine to point out disparities between men and women in different categories of physical endeavours, and to set out fair arenas of competition.

However what must be resisted is the “women are the weaker sex” message. We have relative strengths in different areas, but compounding the problem that physical contests are culturally entirely designed to showcase the strengths of men.

www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-kent-49724851

My eyes were entirely opened by this achievement by Sarah Thomas doing FOUR laps of the English Channel continuously, literally no man could accomplish what she did, and it caused me to go down the rabbit whole of relative physiological differences. It became pretty clear we’ve stacked the deck against women by making them compete in areas men have the edge.

This issue makes me furious. So many of my friends are happy to throw women under the bus in general, but that they can't see the inherent unfairness, or they do and their TWAW dissonance won't allow them to admit it, makes me rage. it's not even just elite athletics. Every time there's a selective team, at all ages and skill levels, and a girl/woman loses the spot to a biological male... Argh!!! Who cares if it's "just" the school netball team? That girl tried her hardest and would have got a place except for somebody completely taking the piss and ignoring their unfair advantage to take the spot. It's not on.

And then the woke "but are you saying women aren't as good as men at sport, how awful are you?" as if it's some kind of gotcha. YES. YES I AM. Women are at an obvious physical disadvantage in nearly every physical characteristic. It's not a slur on women to say so, it's the reality of our biological bodies. That's why we have women's sports, you fool!

Whereas the Washington Examiner opinion piece, clearly supporting women’s right to fair competition, is by a man, Zachary Faria. He says No one is arguing that transgender women should be left out of sports altogether, simply that biological reality dictates that their natural advantages born through male puberty should not be permitted in women’s sports.

Cynically, I can’t help thinking that the reason there are a lot of men ‘on our side’ regarding sports is because it allows them to go on about how much bigger, stronger, faster men are. But I’ll take the support anyway.

In the sport debate I have a horrible feeling there's an undercurrent of people actually wanting to see females hurt.

Considering how much pornography is about violence against women, and how popular that is, I think you’re right, MondayYogurt.

Interesting that the original NY Times report uses trans jargon, eg “ciswomen”, though one of its authors, Gillian R Brassil, is a former elite athlete herself.

The NY Times report is well researched, quoting a lot of scientists and other sports experts.
But it says that Martina Navratilova claimed “without evidence“ that any man could “decide to be female,” take hormones and become victorious and then reverse course “and go back to making babies.”
I don’t know about the fertility aspect, but Martina was certainly correct about self-ID, as currently allowed. The male-bodied people currently taking women’s medals and prize money could change gender again tomorrow or whenever their age slows them down.

Whereas the Washington Examiner opinion piece, clearly supporting women’s right to fair competition, is by a man, Zachary Faria. He says No one is arguing that transgender women should be left out of sports altogether, simply that biological reality dictates that their natural advantages born through male puberty should not be permitted in women’s sports.

In the sport debate I have a horrible feeling there's an undercurrent of people actually wanting to see females hurt.