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Caitlin Moran in the Guardian today

434 replies

RoyalCorgi · 29/08/2020 11:17

I promise I'm not trying to start another argument about Caitlin Moran. It's just that I want to record my annoyance and despair at her rewriting of history. Apparently in the 1980s there were no female role models for girls apart from Mrs Thatcher and Miss Piggy. And no one ever wrote about female masturbation until Caitlin wrote about it in her 2011 book. Plus more in that vein.

I remember back in the 80s reading Dale Spender's marvellous book "Women of ideas and what men have done to them" where she painstakingly writes in detail at the lives of amazing historical women - scientists, philosophers, writers, campaigners - and looks at how they were simply forgotten about and written out of history. Thanks in part to Spender's work, female historians went about the business of researching more forgotten women and writing their biographies.

Now it seems as if all the work of feminists in the 70s and 80s on, for example, female sexuality or in political campaigning has just been forgotten about. Feminists hadn't achieved anything of note until Caitlin Moran wrote How to be a Woman.

Once again, women's achievements are being written out of history.

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/29/caitlin-moran-reread-how-to-be-a-woman-marvel-what-i-got-wrong

OP posts:
stumbledin · 30/08/2020 00:30

Oooh - no one has ever thought I was actually someone known.

Every now and again Hadley Freeman is spot on. Cant remember every reading anything by Marina Hyde. And Zoe Williams was certainly a persistent denigrator of grass routes feminism, but now seems to be an all purpose commentator (having paid her dues stitching up other women for the patriarchy).

hasn't Hadley Freeman been "let go".

DonnaQuixotedelaManchester · 30/08/2020 00:24

@stumbledin

What do you think of Zoe Williams? Hadley Freeman? Marina Hyde? Out of interest?

(You're not one of them, are you? Because if you are Marina Hyde your columns are great!)

stumbledin · 30/08/2020 00:03

She is a creation of the media. They publicised her to begin with as a put down / erasure of actual living feminism.

And they are doing this again now.

The Guardian only ever gives space to one of their own.

Media feminism is a deliberate tactic to misdirect women away from what is actually going on.

If it is in the Guardian its a ploy.

The worry is that there are always women who are so desparate to be noticed by men that there will always be one willing to fulfil this role.

(Not forgetting that this is how Germaine Greer became famous. Not for doing anything original but compiling for her publishers a quick scamper through other women's actual politics. And obviously negate the positivity of what was than a sucessful mass movement by presenting feminism as individualist achievement.)

So anytime anything is in the Guardian, dont bother with the content. Think why are they publicising it. What is it they dont want women to know?!!

FemaleAndLearning · 29/08/2020 23:43

Also in the 1980s we had Wonder Woman and Princess Leah, Bananarama, Annie Lennox, Salt and Peppa, Madonna, Alison Moyet to name a few I can remember.

ChattyLion · 29/08/2020 22:53

Grunge thread, you say, Phil? I just searched and found one from 2010 that was entertaining but probably not the one you meant..

CivilCervix · 29/08/2020 22:52

@PhilSwagielka

Are any of you in the grunge thread? There's some interesting discussions about women in that scene and female musicians. I did wonder if Britpop/lad culture was a backlash against that, but then you had Sleeper, Echobelly, Elastica, and later Catatonia and Kenickie as well (and Skunk Anansie, who aren't Britpop but were around at the same time).
Where's the grunge thread? I was obsessed with Elastica & Sleeper. We used to sing 'you said I was cheap, you were the sale of the century' at the tops of our voices. I feel like things have gone downhill since.
DonnaQuixotedelaManchester · 29/08/2020 22:46

@Mrstraveller

Isn't it fantastic? I love it

Wondersense · 29/08/2020 22:43

@SummerSummerSummertime

She has a hugely over inflated sense of her own importance doesn't she?!
I don't think that's relevant and it's often something that's used at prominent women - how very dare she! Who does that madam think she is eh?

There is a myriad of writers that your accusation could apply to, including authors who think the world needs to read or listen to their thoughts. She is no different from any other opinion piece writer that's prominent in the public sphere.

PhilSwagielka · 29/08/2020 22:40

I love my Docs but they do need a lot of breaking in! I went out clubbing once wearing Docs with fishnets. It was a bad idea.

Mrstraveller · 29/08/2020 22:37

Loved the back stage film of Stevie Nicks.

Wondersense · 29/08/2020 22:36

I searched that article for the word 'trans' and there is only one mention of it. I find that quite unbelievable since it's the biggest issue facing women's right at the moment, if not the past decade or more.

I have no issue with her talking about her experience of being a woman....but I think she has no longer has the credibility to write about feminism or use it as a word to describe her writing.

She's clearly pulled an 'All Lives Matter' on women and thinks it's acceptable as long as she does it with jazz hands!!

ChilliBeanSauce · 29/08/2020 22:36

She’s the one with the rich grandparents and posh parents who decided it would be cool to get a council house, right?

IfNotNow123 · 29/08/2020 22:34

Love and Rockets comic books ❤️ about a group of young Mexican-American punk girls.
That was 90s, I think. Loved that!

Deliriumoftheendless · 29/08/2020 22:23

Joan Armatrading, Björk, Lydia Lunch., Danielle Dax.

Tank Girl, Halo Jones (creates by men but loved by girls/women)

DonnaQuixotedelaManchester · 29/08/2020 22:20

@Justhadathought

They liked, got on with, and survived in a male dominated world and very much saw themselves as individuals primarily

That's the definition of feminism I want to stick with.

SummerSummerSummertime · 29/08/2020 22:19

Also, I thought CM was supposed to have read lots as a child? Didn't read her Judy Blume books then did she? Hmm

Justhadathought · 29/08/2020 22:19

There has been a recent slew of older rock/pop/punk women writing biographies in recent years. I've really enjoyed the ones I've read. Some, I must say, have never really classed themselves, or particularly identified themselves, as feminists( Chrissie Hynde, Debbie Harry, Patti Smith, Brix Smith ). They liked, got on with, and survived in a male dominated world and very much saw themselves as individuals primarily - certainly from my reading.

ChristmasCarcass · 29/08/2020 22:19

@DidoLamenting well it's either lack of exposure or she's really fucking self-absorbed and thick, so I was trying to be charitable! Grin

DonnaQuixotedelaManchester · 29/08/2020 22:18

@DidoLamenting

Must be your feet.

Although I did hear that Dms are not the same since made abroad.Biscuit

Bowie and so much of the 80s - Boy George, Steve Strange, Marilyn all played on the androgyny angle. Divine, anyone?

Pete Burns, Marc Almond (to a degree) - there were loads that played with sexuality plus Grace Jones, Annie Lennox, KD Lang, Tracey Chapman,

Anyone remember the film Boys Don't Cry with Hilary Swank? - absolutely heartbreaking and she was amazing in it.

Also lots of alternative stuff that played on roles Rocky Horror Show, Paris, Texas? Bagdad Cafe - might have got some films mixed up but I watched everything strange and obscure in the 80s.

DeaconBoo · 29/08/2020 22:16

I generally enjoy reading CM as a lightweight piece to chuckle at, and she gets the odd thing spot-on, but this has pissed me off.

"Masturbation, pornography, pubic hair, abusive relationships, wonky tits, menstruation, eating disorders, abortion, the madness of expensive weddings, sexism in the workplace, the pressure to have children, binge-drinking, the pain of childbirth, the joy of life as a modern woman: when I wrote How To Be A Woman in 2011, these were pretty novel subjects"

I deliberately avoided looking at 'How to be a woman' as the title made me roll my eyes SO HARD, and because I was, actually quite sick of HOT TAKES on all these things at that point. It's not like you can't predict what she'll say about these topics. Someone bought it for me for my birthday and I was weirdly mildly annoyed. I read it and it was a funny enough read but I've forgotten most of it. I also remember feeling very patronised at CM excitedly telling me to think things I'd already made deliberate choices to think when I was a teen (like not to give a shit about waxing etc). Expect I'd be more annoyed reading it now.

I was also a fan of Le Tigre (and 'She Bop')!

SummerSummerSummertime · 29/08/2020 22:15

She has a hugely over inflated sense of her own importance doesn't she?!

NeedToKnow101 · 29/08/2020 22:08

@bellinisurge

The more I look at it the more I think the TRA trend of performing womanhood got such a tight hold because we didn't bother so much with feminism in the noughties. There's a whole generation of dolts that don't realise how important it is. I used to yawn about endless "women in rock" articles in the 80s covering Debbie Harry and Chrissie Hynde [write about the music, ffs]. Those tedious articles seem to be on repeat even now and we are all supposed to think it's cutting edge when a woman demonstrates sexuality by performing the way men think we all do.
I'm a bit drunk but the trans movement also doesn't acknowledge the gender-bending 70s and 80s. So many musicians and performers playing with gender, from Bowie to Boy George to bleedin' the Kemp brothers, from Grace Jones and Annie Lennox to KD Lang. None of them insisted they were actually the opposite sex. Such a creative and free time to live through, sadly look where we are now.
Justhadathought · 29/08/2020 22:07

Nina Hagen, Poly Styrene. Siouxsie, Patti Smith, Debbie Harry, Chrissie Hynde, Kate Bush, Annie Lennox, Suzie Quatro......

lucylocketspockets · 29/08/2020 22:04

@DidoLamenting My only DMs are the most cripplingly painful footwear I've ever owned. A complete waste of a lot of money. I have persevered and persevered but they are awful. And unwearable.

Shoes or boots? I haven't worn the boots for decades but the shoes do take some wearing in to really be as comfy as possible.

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