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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Caitlin Moran in the Guardian today

434 replies

RoyalCorgi · 29/08/2020 11:17

I promise I'm not trying to start another argument about Caitlin Moran. It's just that I want to record my annoyance and despair at her rewriting of history. Apparently in the 1980s there were no female role models for girls apart from Mrs Thatcher and Miss Piggy. And no one ever wrote about female masturbation until Caitlin wrote about it in her 2011 book. Plus more in that vein.

I remember back in the 80s reading Dale Spender's marvellous book "Women of ideas and what men have done to them" where she painstakingly writes in detail at the lives of amazing historical women - scientists, philosophers, writers, campaigners - and looks at how they were simply forgotten about and written out of history. Thanks in part to Spender's work, female historians went about the business of researching more forgotten women and writing their biographies.

Now it seems as if all the work of feminists in the 70s and 80s on, for example, female sexuality or in political campaigning has just been forgotten about. Feminists hadn't achieved anything of note until Caitlin Moran wrote How to be a Woman.

Once again, women's achievements are being written out of history.

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/29/caitlin-moran-reread-how-to-be-a-woman-marvel-what-i-got-wrong

OP posts:
fatblackcatspaw · 29/08/2020 15:00

Mary Daly ! she came up after the Speakers Corner in Edinburgh... must see if I can order some of her books

YetAnotherSpartacus · 29/08/2020 14:59

And Juliet Mitchell

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juliet_Mitchell

CuriousaboutSamphire · 29/08/2020 14:59

It's a bit like being told we never saw black kids on telly in the ... And when you sing the Double-deckers theme tune you get blank looks!!!

It's not like Brinsley Ford was a nobody!

The past is, as ever, a foreign country!

YetAnotherSpartacus · 29/08/2020 14:57

Please remember the contributions of Sheila Rowbotham.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheila_Rowbotham

Gailhugger · 29/08/2020 14:56

So many people are searching for a guru. If it brings a few more people along for the ride via Libfem, I don’t give a damn. I don’t do women down. Too many men already in that game. The more sunlight, the more sunlight.

CharlottesComplicatedWeb · 29/08/2020 14:55

CM ... not a heavyweight in terms of role models for women. A bit like The Spice Girls banging on about “Girl Power” 🙄

RubyViolet · 29/08/2020 14:54

Pressgang the kids tv show. I loved that, and Julia Sawalha as the female editor of the paper. Grange Hill was good on issues for girls growing up then.

ArabellaScott · 29/08/2020 14:53

'You're getting old", that's what they'll say
But don't give a damn I'm listening anyway...

...So many rules and so much opinion
So much shit to give in, give in to
So many rules and so much opinion
So much bullshit but we won't give in'

genius.com/Le-tigre-hot-topic-lyrics

The lyrics are annotated! With wee bios of some of the women mentioned.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 29/08/2020 14:52

I'm quite sad that no one really remembers UK feminist history. Please don't forget Shiela Rowbotham, Juliet Mitchell, Ann Oakley and Susie Orbach.

Also - www.historyrevealed.com/eras/20th-century/womens-lib-the-second-wave-of-feminism/

bettsbattenburg · 29/08/2020 14:50

@RoyalCorgi

I wonder which rock she was hiding under that she had never read any Lynne Reid Banks books?

And don't forget Margaret Drabble - both she and Reid Banks wrote novels in the 60s about young women having babies outside marriage, which was a huge deal in those days. Drabble's book, The Millstone, also touches on the difficulties in procuring an abortion at a time when it was illegal.

I had forgotten Margaret Drabble, no idea how as I loved her books. I also used to read quite a few Virago books as a teen.

This, from The Guardian article, is ridiculous.

Masturbation, pornography, pubic hair, abusive relationships, wonky tits, menstruation, eating disorders, abortion, the madness of expensive weddings, sexism in the workplace, the pressure to have children, binge-drinking, the pain of childbirth, the joy of life as a modern woman: when I wrote How To Be A Woman in 2011, these were pretty novel subjects,

Mashingthecompost · 29/08/2020 14:48

@merrymouse I was just thinking, I'm sure I read about masturbation in Deenie...!

I thought it was just me that was irritated at her assumptions that she invented feminism, and also that she is a big brave lady for wearing DMs and not dyeing her hair. (I think I have similar dress sense, I don't think she shouldn't dress a certain way, just that it's not groundbreaking to do so.)

Deliriumoftheendless · 29/08/2020 14:47

Marge, Lisa and Maggie Simpson

RoyalCorgi · 29/08/2020 14:45

I wonder which rock she was hiding under that she had never read any Lynne Reid Banks books?

And don't forget Margaret Drabble - both she and Reid Banks wrote novels in the 60s about young women having babies outside marriage, which was a huge deal in those days. Drabble's book, The Millstone, also touches on the difficulties in procuring an abortion at a time when it was illegal.

OP posts:
NeedToKnow101 · 29/08/2020 14:44

I'm glad you started this thread too OP, it's such a great reminder of feminist women and literature (and TV!)

"What troubles me is the thought of younger generations believing this rubbish. "

I agree. Women's History, or should I say Herstory, is being rewritten and cancelled, and people like the self-obsessed, fake feminist, Caitlin Moran is complicit in this.
Bring back Germaine Greer!!!!!!

lady69 · 29/08/2020 14:43

80’s women? There was this singer called Madonna who was quite influential in the 1980’s. And Annie Lennox. And Alyson Moyet.

bettsbattenburg · 29/08/2020 14:36

I wonder which rock she was hiding under that she had never read any Lynne Reid Banks books?

fatblackcatspaw · 29/08/2020 14:35

A fabulous now dead rad fem I know said this was the way the patriarchy worked we have to spend so much time each generation rediscovering our history it keeps us occuped and unable to change things becase we are continually reinventing the wheel.

HotSauceCommittee · 29/08/2020 14:33

@EmpressJKRowlingSpartacus

I’ve just finished Difficult Women by Helen Lewis & it was a huge revelation. Why is nobody talking about Maureen Colquhoun, the first lesbian MP? Sophia Jex Blake & the rest of the Edinburgh Seven, who led the fight for women to be able to become doctors?
I read that too! I was excited that someone else had read it. No other reason for quoting/replying to you. I have "One Dimensional Woman" next and then I might order "The Gendered Brain".
RoyalCorgi · 29/08/2020 14:32

I wasn't sure about starting this thread as I don't really like attacking other women, but I'm really glad I did, as I'm so enjoying reading about all those brilliant women and books from the 70s that I'd forgotten about.

The Women's Room and Fear of Flying were both HUGE in the 70s, and both dealt very explicitly with sex from a woman's point of view. I read them both as a teenager.

And I'm excited to discover that Dido remembers Lisa Alther's Kinflicks, which was one of my favourite novels for a long time, but I don't think I know anyone else who remembers it. I know this is going to be hard to credit, but it contains descriptions of lesbian sex, even though it was published in 1976, when Caitlin Moran was only a baby and hadn't yet invented feminism.

OP posts:
HeIenaDove · 29/08/2020 14:27

@lovelymm I posted before i saw your post. Completely agree. I think The Gentle Touch has aged really well.

ITV4 recently did a repeat showing of Dempsey and Makepeace too In a few episodes she kicks back at sexism too including a long rant about victim blaming.

Tootletum · 29/08/2020 14:23

I don't take her seriously and find her mildly entertaining as a columnist when she used to do the celebrity watch column. I was however very put off by her writing last week in the Times (an extract from her new book) about her daughter's very serious mental health/eating issues. I am pretty sure having my mother make copy out of my difficulties would not help me if I were her daughter.

TheySeeHerRowling · 29/08/2020 14:22

Another one coming on to say Nancy Friday

Black Lace erotica books ('by women for women') came out, to much fanfare, in the early 90s

My idols, as a girl growing up in the 80s, were the Bronte sisters, Virginia Woolf, Kiri Te Kanawa, Kate Bush - Maggie T and Miss Piggy were nowhere on my list

I read books by Germaine Greer, Susie Orbach, Kate Millett and checked out the school library's copy of Spare Rib whenever I had a free period

But I guess I must have dreamed all of this

Lottapianos · 29/08/2020 14:20

'When I turned 18, she gave me my own copy of Our Bodies Ourselves with 'from one feminist to another' written inside'

That's just so lovely Smile

Deliriumoftheendless · 29/08/2020 14:18

In fact I want to put KATE ADIE in capitals ffs.

Deliriumoftheendless · 29/08/2020 14:17

Yes Philswagielka if no one else many of us had our mums, grandmas, big sisters, aunties and teachers as role models even if we ignored everyone else around us.

And Jan Leeming, Kate Adie, Moria Stuart, Angela Rippon, Floella Benjamin...

I could do this all day and maybe we should.