Passenger sues Easyjet after crew asked her to move seat for ultra-Orthodox man refusing to sit next to women

But women will no longer be allowed to ask (politely) if a passenger would be willing to move seats. If this case succeeds it sets a dangerous precedent.

People should be allowed to ask. As long as there's no demands or aggression or expectation of a definite yes. No-one was forced to move, no-one insisted on anything.

I don't see this having an impact on vulnerable women. That's not the issue here. If you don't want to sit next to someone, move. No one is saying you should be forced to sit next to someone you don't want, just that you can't expect them to move for you. You can still ask to move seats yourself.

I think it's a worry if she wins this case. I agree with @Eastie77 that the airline didn't do anything wrong. They weren't the ones to ask her to move, and as Eastie says the men only asked. They didn't order her to move or insist on it. People are entitled to ask politely.

Those points aside my concern is over the potential impact on women. Mainly traumatised DV or rape survivors, who might feel safer not sat next to a man. They might feel the need to ask a male passenger to move seats. Whilst a different reason than religion, it's relevant because they generally won't want to disclose distressing experiences to strangers and would probably simply politely explain they feel more comfortable sat next to a same sex passenger.

If this woman wins her case it has potential negative impact on vulnerable women.

To the 'BAME' women stating it is all the same - that's your experience. You don't speak for me.

No one is trying to speak for you - your torrents of misogyny and attempts at downplaying sexism and staying outright that sexism isn’t a big deal for various reasons more than speak for themselves.

The time I was chased by a group of White men in a car screaming racist abuse is the same as my experiences of sexism. Okay.

I genuinely find this baffling. I’ve had men scream racist abuse at me and have also had men scream misogynistic abuse at me. The two experiences are exactly the same, actually the second is more frightening due to increased threat of sexual assault. Why are you so determined to force your views that sexism isn’t as big a deal as racism onto everyone, rather than acknowledge that the reason intersectionality exists is because of misogynoir? (A concept I strongly recommend you explore.)

Your comments on this thread have been pretty nasty and yes 100% oppression Olympics. What you’ve done is the equivalent of gatecrashing a thread about breast cancer support and screaming “LIVER CANCER IS WORSE SHUT UP.” Like... yeah maybe liver cancer is worse than breast cancer, doesn’t mean every single cancer thread has to be about liver.

It is always difficult when views clash. However here she is in the right - why should she be asked to move. If someone asked to move away from a black person because they were a white supremasist the airlines would not be allowing that I assume.

Well, let's put it this way ...

while it's unlikely, I submit it's more unlikely if it were a female white supremacist and a black man, than it it were a male white supremacist and a black woman.

It is always difficult when views clash. However here she is in the right - why should she be asked to move. If someone asked to move away from a black person because they were a white supremasist the airlines would not be allowing that I assume.

If they have problems travelling with women they can book an extra seat or not travel or arrange their own planes.

The logical response to that is to learn how to control their thoughts rather than to expect women to be inconvenienced because they can't be bothered to try.

Coveting your neighbour's ass is also a sin, right? So does that mean that people can't have an ass (or the modern equivalent of one - iPhone maybe) next to them? Or they might get all covetous. That would mean men with nice stuff would have to move, right? No? If course not because that would be patently ridiculous, expecting men to change their behaviour to suit the religion of others. That's how you know it's the patriarchy, not just religion.

It’s not like they find women distasteful, it’s that (weirdly) they feel they might be tempted to have improper thoughts about women so avoid looking at female non-family members

The logical response to that is to learn how to control their thoughts rather than to expect women to be inconvenienced because they can't be bothered to try.

Although we are told our voices are welcomed, if we don't toe the party line and accept that the experiences of all women are equally as bad regardless of race we are drowned out.

I think maybe part of this is that if women are meeting or talking together about feminism, they will naturally look for common ground in terms of their experiences as women. Of course if you are subjected to racism or disablism as well as/combined with sexism, you have a right to talk about those experiences and it's unfair to be drowned out when you try to share those. Those experiences shouldn't be dismissed and you shouldn't be talked over just because they're not experiences that all women have - that's inexcusable.

I do think it's a tough call though to assume that any woman automatically has it worse than any other woman (not saying anyone in particular is assuming this but seems to be a theme in the thread). We just don't know what individual women have been through so it doesn't even seem fair to have that kind of discussion. We also don't know how each woman has dealt with the things that have happened to her - some women are broken by oppression, others seem to sail through it all despite horrendous hardship. There aren't really any rules about who has things worse.

In this case, it's a clear example of sex discrimination - the woman should never have been asked to move. She was asked to move because men found her presence to be contaminating and unacceptable. She has every right to demand compensation for the fact that her legal rights were not upheld in this situation. And I think that kind of sex discrimination could happen to a woman of any race or ethnicity, so it's fair enough to think about it in terms of our commonalities and universal shared experience.

It’s not like they find women distasteful, it’s that (weirdly) they feel they might be tempted to have improper thoughts about women so avoid looking at female non-family members

TL;DR - "I might not be able help myself" ?

Sure I've heard that before. Never in a good way, mind you.

It’s not like they find women distasteful, it’s that (weirdly) they feel they might be tempted to have improper thoughts about women so avoid looking at female non-family members

Then it might be a good idea to pack a sleep mask in their carry-on (I do when I travel, though obviously for different reasons) rather than expect women to accommodate their pathological lack of self-control.

Eastie you seem determined to make this all about you. I agree with the poster who said you are seeing racism where none exists.

You are perfectly entitled to think that if you want- others are perfectly entitled to disagree. Your saying so doesn’t make it true.

@toilenstripes No, I'm not from NY or LAI'm also not willing to "accept prejudice". I've already said that I wouldn't have moved seats if I was in the same situation. If challenged I would have then made my feelings entirely clear, explained that I would not inconvenience myself for these two men and settled in my seat for the rest of the flight home. I wouldn't have gone on to sue the airline unless they tried to force me to move, harassed me or did anything else that I felt infringed my rights. I don't think that asking me a question does any of those things. I shouldn't have been asked to move in the first place for sure but I wouldn't take legal action because of it. Apparently this makes me some kind of traitor to my sex and too dimwitted to understand prejudice.

@chocaholic9 Your experiences are yours and mine are mine. Please don't tell me I'm seeing racism where there is none. When White women try and shoot me down for suggesting my experiences of racism are not the same as their experiences I will call that what I want. I'm not sitting back and allowing myself to be talked down to and schooled in what prejudice looks like. If you don't feel the same that's fine. You do you.

@Mariel I do have Black friends who engage with and are members of Feminist groups. However many quickly become disillusioned. Although we are told our voices are welcomed, if we don't toe the party line and accept that the experiences of all women are equally as bad regardless of race we are drowned out. The 'good' Black women who smile and nod and embrace the teachings of the predominantly White leadership are welcomed. We are now facing accusations from Black trans women who claim that we are part of the oppression if we don't accept them as women. Assailed from all sides, many of us have just withdrawn from the whole movement.

Does anyone recall a budget airline trying to charge extra for wheelchairs and front row seating?

Thomas cook tried this with my mother once years and years back. AND she had already paid for the legroom/front seats too (think they have to be same cost now if they need them rather than just want?). But apparently they double booked them so she was expected to move or book a different flight Ontop of this, she was told her walking aid MUST be placed in the hold instead of keeping it with her! She could just get it when she gets off, or can sit and wait for a staff member to bring her it.. Someone else did speak up and she was able to keep the thing that she needs to move independently, and did not end up moving seats despite the deathstares all round (as clearly it is a disabled womans fault that she is disabled and now that shes been asked to do something detrimental to her and has said that would be a big problem, it is her fault there has been a 5 min delay), but still.

Was ages back, and she did get an apology mind and a (low value) voucher, but thats not the point at all.

If one chooses to follow a religion which makes normal social interaction problematic I'm not sure why one wouldn't just stick to one's chosen religious rules rather than expect random strangers to adjust their normal behaviour, even to inconvenience themselves, to accommodate one's religious beliefs.

Yes I would call these particular men on the plane (and those that engage in this behaviour) cunts. That's because what they are. Not because of being Jewish, but because they are self-absorbed and expect other people to run around to accommodate them.

I think the airline should have asked the man to swap seats not her, but I also would not take it at all personally if an ultra-orthodox man didn’t want to sit next to me. It’s not like they find women distasteful, it’s that (weirdly) they feel they might be tempted to have improper thoughts about women so avoid looking at female non-family members (depending on their level of Orthodoxy of course, this is just the extreme ones, Chabadniks for example do not have this problem). They won’t even look at ads with women for fear of their thoughts. Men, aye?

One would not expect an airline to tell a Muslim they must find their own Halal meal, nor a person with prostate cancer they couldn't have an aisle seat to ensure ready access to a lavatory

I think a closer analogy here would be
Muslim passenger books flight and does not specify needing halal meals.
Others (as fairly sure they will take a few halal meals just incase) have been taken already, so the passenger demands that the person sitting behind them has to give him theirs.

Even that though, rules out the misogyny side of it tbh. The man wants to be not next to a woman, fine, up to him. But HE moves to somewhere a woman is not, you don't expect everyone elses life to revolve around you.

I am saddened by the comments on this thread, by women, minimising the impact of this sort of discrimination against women.

I can only conclude that they are so used to it, they've started to accept and embrace it as a survival strategy? It's deeply fucked up.

I find sex discrimination deeply personal.

Never understand entitled dickheads like this dude. Why didn't HE move if it was such an issue. No need to inconvenience others just because you personally aren't happy.

Another option is..if it bothers you that much, pay for two seats, then you won't be stuck next to one of those horrible things, that we call women.