Passenger sues Easyjet after crew asked her to move seat for ultra-Orthodox man refusing to sit next to women

One of the comments from a Daily Mail reader

Every single one of these stupid, irrational and bigoted men lived for nine months inside the body of a woman. After nine months, each one exited via the most intimate part of her anatomy. That same woman kept him alive through her breast milk until he was ready for solid food. He was totally dependent on the gender he now considers to be inferior to all males, no matter how stupid, ignorant, cruel, dishonest or abusive. I hate religion. The sooner it fades into history the better

Eastie77 you have derailed this thread. And you were telling other people how to think despite your backtracking now.

Eastie, very interesting points; thanks. I know we don't have to rank what is worse racism or sexism but it is fascinating to debate. Indeed some religions go in for both of them along with being anti gay too for a triple whammy. You can certainly describe how you feel and give your views as can we all.

It is never easy to ask someone to move - eg if someone smells or are so large they are half on your seat or most commonly because people want to sit near their family (which I have sometimes accommodated now my children are older particularly if I get an aisle seat for short flights as I prefer the aisle).

When the law on discriminationa gainst religions hits against equality legislation it is always fascinating. If your religion says gays burn in hell can you be forced not to bake a cake to celebrate them. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_v_Ashers_Baking_Company_Ltd_and_others The Christians won - you cannot be forced to promote views with which you do not agree although this is being challenged by the gay man in a further human rights case I think. Should a cake shop with black owners be forced to bake cakes for customers with an anti black slogan on it? No under current English law. We allow Catholic doctors not to abort babies under English law too where they believe abortion is murder.

It's been suggested that this occurrence wasn't "random" but that - having been handed their arse to them on a plate by El-Al - there's an activist movement of Jews with these beliefs that are deliberately setting out to cause trouble ?

www.nakedcapitalism.com/2018/07/women-and-men-of-the-world-unite-how-to-stand-up-to-extremist-orthodox-jews-who-demand-you-give-up-your-airline-seat.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4227922/Orthodox-Jewish-men-cause-bedlam-easyJet-flight.html

(Notice the dates on the articles ...)

And it seems Rosa Parks would get a "Who ?" in some parts of Israel

www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-orthodox-women/israel-back-of-the-bus-rule-sparks-religious-row-idUSL1417084320080115

For some reason, nothing I've read in the past hour has made me any less convinced that all religions are a crock of shit, really. By all means, believe whatever you want to believe to get you through the day. But don't require or expect me to indulge you beyond a "That's nice dear."

Should have chucked HIM off the plane.

She has been wronged. She should not have been asked to move. It was against the law for her to be asked. It's clear, and there are lots of examples to support her.

Some here are saying they wouldn't mind being asked to move seats. I guess that's up to you. Personally I object to being considered a second class citizen and asked to move to appease someone else's religious feelings or dislike or disapproval of women.

Even if you take the discrimination aspect out of it, I just don't see why it's okay to ask someone else to move because you don't want to sit next to them. I've sat next to people on planes and been uncomfortable. I've discreetly asked staff if there's another seat I could move to. I would never dream of asking the other person to move! In the past, asking for seat swaps was sometimes done, and I've offered to swap seats when it's clear I'm in the middle of a family group, but these days, people can book their seats in advance, so there's no reason why you can't sit with your kids, partner etc, or even book extra seats so you don't have to sit next to someone you might disapprove of. There's no excuse for treating people this way, and in this case, it is not only rude, but it breaks the law that says women have an equal right to fly in planes and sit in the seat they've booked.

This is an interesting take on it from a Jewish woman. She doesn’t believe it sexist but she doesn’t approve as it doesn’t sit well with other tenets of Judaism.

You can never justify or fight religion with religion. It's all looney tunes. The best you can hope for is a tacit admission that "Yes, I have some fruit loopy ideas, but they don't hurt anyone, and give me comfort".

Only in this case they did hurt someone. Unless being adjudged a second class citizen with fewer right than men sits OK with anyone here ? It doesn't seem there's a 100% consensus that the lady in question has been wronged ....

@boltzmannbrains the sexist and racist experiences were the same for you but wouldn't necessarily not be the same for me.

Do you understand the concept that individuals experience things differently?
Or do you think all BAME women have to speak with one voice on everything since we all have exactly the same backgrounds, life experiences etc. Oh wait, we don't.

If 3 people hit their thumbs with a hammer Person A might say "that's the worst pain I've ever endured". Person B might say "well actually that was equally as painful as the time I..." and Person C might not be bothered by it at all.

All points are valid based on their own individual experiences. Person B doesn't get to tell the other two that the pain of the hammer blow is just as painful as another type of pain. That was their experience.

If a a man asked me to switch seats because of his religious beliefs I wouldn't find it as offensive or as upsetting if he said instead "I don't want to sit next to you because you are Black" I'm allowed to think that.

I am not downplaying sexism. I am simply stating how I would feel. Personally I would find the request ridiculous and would refuse to move but I would also recognise the man's behaviour is a result of the religion and culture he has been raised under. As a result I wouldn't refer to him as a cunt or similar (but on this thread it's apparently ok to do so) and I wouldn't sue an airline.

I've repeated time and time again that if other women feel differently that is fine. I am not trying to tell other people how to think but I am voicing my opinion. Apparently that isn't allowed unless I agree 100% with the comments here about sexism and racism.
Well that's not happening sooo I'll wish you all a nice Sunday and hope you enjoy the sunshine.

I suppose if women started asking for any Hassidic men placed in the row in front of them to be moved as they did not want to be near sexist people that might stop the men asking to be moved if placed in a row with women.

This is an interesting take on it from a Jewish woman. She doesn’t believe it sexist but she doesn’t approve as it doesn’t sit well with other tenets of Judaism.

www.jpost.com/blogs/generation-why!/ultra-orthodox-male-plight-sitting-next-to-women-on-planes-396902

From what I read in this case there was no entitlement but simply a polite request. If I'm wrong and someone was forced to move that's clearly not ok, but that's very different from a polite request with no expectation of a definite yes.

She felt coerced into moving from the aisle seat she’d paid extra for. The air steward offered her a hot drink to move, facilitating the men’s request, resulting in an impasse that meant she felt she had no option to move as her refusal would hold up the flight.

Given the men can’t look at her and will have asked her indirectly via his wife or other female relative, I doubt the request came across as an empathetic, “Hi, I wonder if there’s any chance that you might swap with my friend so we can sit together?”

Don't know but I bet if one of them keeled over with some medical emergency your attention would conveniently be suddenly good enough.

I once asked two Orthodox men in the park to stop smoking next to children's play area where it is banned. They completely ignored me and turned their backs. When a male park services attendant approached them they immediately acknowledged him and put their cigarettes out

Wonder if they would help if you were in some sort of danger.

@sergeilavrov " El Al, the national carrier of Israel, has a no nonsense approach: if they try and do the seat thing, they’re removed immediately by security"

So those guys already knew what they were demanding was not on. But they chanced their arm with 'nice' EasyJet staff who would feel uncomfortable saying no.

They were taking the pxss and should not have been pandered to.

@sergeilavrov " El Al, the national carrier of Israel, has a no nonsense approach: if they try and do the seat thing, they’re removed immediately by security"

Well, that's good to hear!

Thanks to the people who answered the question about why the airline is assuming the woman should move. That there's only one of her, making it simpler to move her, is the only even slightly valid point. Otherwise, just ye olde sexism. Figures. It's weird how automatic it is.

The airline shouldn't even ask. The law is clear. They should have said, no we won't be asking the woman to move as that would be against the laws on sex discrimination.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I believe that anyone should have the right to politely ask another passenger if they'd mind moving for whatever reason.

They can ask sure, but they don't have the right for the airline to try and talk the woman into moving on their behalf. He asked, she said no, which she had every right to. Funny how his first course of action though was to expect the woman to move, rather than solving the problem himself. If not sitting next to a woman is so important to him, why didn't he book an extra seat? There are ways to ensure he wasn't sitting by a woman, he chose not to do that. Why? Gee, i don't know, maybe he's just so entitled and misogynistic that he expects women to do whatever he demands.

That's not my beliefs but they have the right to their view, however much I don't agree, as long as they don't force it on anyone else. A request is not the same as enforcing anything. People are free to request, the same as others are free to say no.

But by demanding women move for them, they are forcing their beliefs on others. And the man didn't just request did he? The airline enforced his so called request for him by convincing the woman to move. They could have just said "the lady said no, there's nothing we can do." Instead they took his ridiculous request seriously. He has a right to his beliefs, he doesn't have the right to expect the rest of the world to fit into those beliefs.

It's not just Israeli law. UK law says the same thing. You can't ask a woman to move when you wouldn't ask a man to do the same thing. It's the basic definition of sex discrimination.

I guess it wouldn't be against the law to ask someone to sit somewhere else if sex/race etc were irrelevant. It would just be extremely bloody rude.

I also thought (having read a pp explanation) they don't believe women are unclean but rather they shouldn't mix with the opposite sex other than their spouse.

Exactly. THEY shouldn't. THEY have the religious obligation, THEY have the impure thoughts FFS, THEY have the beliefs. THEY can move. But they don't want to. They want women to move to accommodate them. And EasyJet shouldn't be facilitating that discrimination.

I don't tend to spend a lot of time in places where my sex is the source of legal issues. Luckily Israel has already made it very clear that legally, if you want to sit beside other men, you must arrange it that way whilst not inconveniencing women. Good for them. And as it says in the article, ultra orthodox communities have ways to do this, buying rows for example. Good for them as well. Everyone gets their needs and wants accommodated, without women having to move to accommodate men and their propensity to impure thoughts.

It was clear discrimination according to Israeli law. She was asked to move on the basis of her gender. Doesn't matter what we think, the asking was against the law. The lsraeli law mentions race and gender in the same phrase, so they are treated as identical issues. She is going to win, and they need to stop catering to Orthodox Jewish men as the line of least resistance and let them do what everyone else does who has a very particular requirement on a plane, and book the seat next door.
If I founded a religion tomorrow that required a 1 metre distance from all men at all times, would easyJet cater for that I wonder? I think not. So why are they catering for this?!

You're wrong. The law clearly says you are not allowed to discriminate against women because of their sex. This includes the expectation that they should go away just because you have a problem with them. So no, it's not okay. Did you read the article?

Apart from this, I really don't understand why, instead of moving yourself, you'd expect another person to move for you. What would you even say? "Sorry but I don't want to sit next to you, can you move please?" I'd tell you to get tae fuck. You have every right to try and move your own seat but zero right to inconvenience me.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I believe that anyone should have the right to politely ask another passenger if they'd mind moving for whatever reason. It's part of freedom of speech in my view.

From what I read in this case there was no entitlement but simply a polite request. If I'm wrong and someone was forced to move that's clearly not ok, but that's very different from a polite request with no expectation of a definite yes.

I also thought (having read a pp explanation) they don't believe women are unclean but rather they shouldn't mix with the opposite sex other than their spouse. That's not my beliefs but they have the right to their view, however much I don't agree, as long as they don't force it on anyone else. A request is not the same as enforcing anything. People are free to request, the same as others are free to say no.

Also you're mistaken, in that the case doesn't set any precedent. The precedent has already been set and the law is clear. The airline broke it. Winning the case doesn't change the law.

I think you have totally missed the point here. The men refused to sit next to her because she is a woman and their religion says women are unclean and to be avoided. The airline staff supported the men by requesting the woman to move to accommodate them, which is illegal. The law says they have no right to make women move for them.

Equally I would say a woman has no right to ask a man should move seats because she doesn't want to sit next to him. She can ask to move herself. I think it would be extremely rude and entitled to expect another person to move for you.