Passenger sues Easyjet after crew asked her to move seat for ultra-Orthodox man refusing to sit next to women

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I am sure that as families they are lovely and caring
but in groups on planes I've never yet seen them behave in a manner that did not upset others on the plane (over several decades) .

Sadly all three of the Abrahamic faiths are inherently sexist
and encouraging faith based segregation at school level will not improve things
either for the gentlemen in this case
or for other groups.

ListeningQuietly - this has been a great thread, pointing out the obvious sexism in the case, without once veering into racism or attacking a whole group of people.

Not all Haredi males are 'obnoxious'. I used to babysit for Haredi neighbours and they have been lovely friends to my family. They recently came to my mum's funeral and I hadn't seen them in years and they were polite and thoughtful. And yes, I'm a woman they're not related to.

Could we agree that some Haredi men are obnoxious. These particular ones and the ones who have committed similar behaviour on planes.

It's really not helpful to tar all Haredi men 'universally'. It's racist. It's also untrue.

Uuugh, people trying to defend disgusting sexism because its in the guise of religion, or because (in their opinion) its not as bad as racism.

Hope the lady sues and wins.

Sexism and Racism are both equally bad, if anything i suffer more from the former, have less support for the sexism because as a women im expected to put up with/accept sexism as opposed to racism which is socially/publicly condemned. Which i find infuriating.

I've been on flights with groups of Haredi men several times.
They are universally obnoxious.
The women in their groups sit quietly looking at the floor.
They have been trained since childhood to look through all other people and to utterly disregard other women.
They push, they shove, they blank you.

Luckily on one flight where they kicked off, the cabin crew moved the five of them to the nice safe seats in the back row that do not recline for seven hours

They know that they may not set next to women.
They never travel alone.
They should always take care to book seats that meet their requirements.
Or put up and shut up like the rest of us.

I buy extra seats when flying alone due to an attempted sexual assault (dozed off after a 20+hr day of work and travel) during a redeye by a male passenger about 7yrs ago.

As a result I plan, pay extra, and avoid sitting next to men as a result. Additionally, I don't wear suit dresses or skirts on flights anymore regardless of the weather. I don't know how much more I could do to safeguard myself beyond that.

My last flight they moved a man to my row (I paid for all three seats) claiming that the plane was full and it was their error and that they would give me free cocktails to compensate me for the additional $1,500+ I had paid for the two extra seats. I smiled politely and said in an upbeat tone "I paid for this space, this safety, for a reason and I refuse to accommodate the airlines poor planning, sorry for the inconvenience! (big smile)". The man called me a "fucking nasty bitch" and the steward placated him in this oozy dripping voice and flirtatiously said that she would 'take such good care' of him. The steward then proceeded to provide beverage service to the passengers in the row next to mine but ignored my requests for water while they were stopped (didn't acknowledge my presence) - I was treated like a non-entity. All I was trying to do was avoid having some creep try to sexually assault me on a plane again.

If I have to go through all that to avoid being sexually assaulted these men could have done the bare minimum by assuming that their preferences are not 'the default' and that they would have to plan for their own accommodation.

Men should never sit next to an unaccompanied child considering men are responsible for 96% of sexual abuse perpetrated against children. I don't care how great the men think they are, logic dictates that you don't put the most vulnerable people in close proximity to those most likely to abuse. My DH is a gem of a human all-around but because he is aware of the stats as well as his imposing stature he would refuse to sit next to an unaccompanied child for the parents' and child's comfort. Kids love him, he is everybody's favorite Uncle (friends' kids) but he is careful to not engage unknown children for any reason. His self-awareness allows him to pocket his ego and behave as a proper supporter of safeguarding and not make it about his feelings.

[quote TeiTetua]A few years ago there were news stories about men being told to change their seats on planes so that they wouldn't be sitting next to children travelling alone.

www.cnn.com/2012/08/14/travel/unaccompanied-children-flights/index.html[/quote]
That was a different form of sexism, as I recall.

The reason being given was that men were less likely to help a child in an emergency (the subtext being it's a womans job).

A few years ago there were news stories about men being told to change their seats on planes so that they wouldn't be sitting next to children travelling alone.

www.cnn.com/2012/08/14/travel/unaccompanied-children-flights/index.html

It's just very simple. The EasyJet staff were caught on the hop as weren't fully armed with the legality

Given that it's happened before - to Easyjet - I'm going to declare that a pathetic excuse that even our current Prime Minister would consider too weak to use.

Many female rape and DV survivors will feel more comfortable sat next to another woman. Likewise many muslim women.

The answer to that is surely to ask to move yourself, not to demand that a man sitting harmlessly in the seat allocated to him be moved. Or to book two seats.

It's just very simple. The EasyJet staff were caught on the hop as weren't fully armed with the legality. If they'd have known 100% that the men's request was illegal, they could just have said 'No, we can't move you as it's against the law to discriminate against other people like this'. Or they could have moved the men miles away from the woman so SHE doesn't have to suffer sitting next to people who consider her 'unclean'.

So what should be happening now is that all airlines should be making this very clear for their staff. And there should be notes when you book your ticket that people can't be moved.

@sergeilavrov that's really informative, thank you!

For those saying it’s about sexual purity (man not wanting to be “tempted“), It’s not.

I really don't care what bollocks it is that makes a man assume he is better than and needs compliance from women. There really is nothing to "understand" or to "respect" in such a view.

For those saying it’s about sexual purity (man not wanting to be “tempted“), It’s not. Men of Orthodox Jewish faith can’t touch unrelated women because they are “unclean” if they are having their period.

This superstition is revolting, utterly dehumanizing, and deeply personal. It is based entirely on an inborn and unchangable characteristic (being female) and should be pushed back against in the strongest terms. I don’t think we should put up with this in a free society any more than we would period huts. Women aren’t aliens.

So what’s the solution? If the men don’t want to sit by a woman they can ask Personnel to have their own seat changed To an open one Elsewhere, and pay a seat change fee if necessary. Same goes if someone is any other kind of bigot Who thinks their seat mate is “unclean”. If the answer is NO they can get off the plane and take the next one. It’s not that difficult.

Am I missing something here? I feel like I'm going a bit insane.

No. It's the conflicting idea that you can tell someone can they move because they are so awful you don't want to sit with them, politely.

Reminds me of Dame Edna Everage eviscerating her guests whilst reassuring them that she means it in a kindly way.

Demanding - or even 'politely asking' - that other passengers move to accommodate your wishes is obnoxious.

Exactly this. I keep making this point because I really can't get my head around a way of thinking that says you should have the right to ask others to move because you don't want to sit next to them. YOU move! You're the one with the problem, you're the one who moves. They haven't done anything except sit there, what on earth would give you the right to ask them to move? If I get on a bus, I don't sit down next to someone and then tell them I don't want to sit next to them, can they go and sit somewhere else! A plane is a bit different because you don't necessarily have as much choice, but when I've sat next to someone I didn't want to be sat next to, I've asked the airline staff could I move to another seat.

Am I missing something here? I feel like I'm going a bit insane.

It's hard not to keep thinking of Monty Python at this point, at the stoning.

...are there any women here ?...

obviously there's a 50% chance you might have to on any given flight

Statistics, yay! I'd say that there was probably about a 70% chance. It's just less than 50% in a two-seat row or if you sit next to a friend. But there's a chance of the middle seat in a three-person, and I don't know if across the aisle counts. I think air travel is probably weighted towards men slightly and I don't know if children who are female count as a problem. Yuk if they do.

If you know it's a big probability, you manage that risk, rather than expecting women to facilitate your wants.

The fact that the men wouldn't even directly ask a woman would make me want to help even less.

A quick google show 5 different airlines fly between Tel Aviv and London, including BA, with BA the men could have booked club or first class tickets and avoided the problem completely.

It seems that there is a pattern of behaviour here, similar to the cake case. These airlines (note the exclusion of El-Al, who won't put up with such tomfoolery) have been selected because they've caved in before.

This isn't about some gentlemen who wanted to fly somewhere because the wanted to go there. This is all about some gentlemen who wanted to be activists for their faith and try and bully low-cost (i.e. low standards) airlines into allowing them to force their disgusting views on the world at large.

I stand by my view (which of course others are free to disagree with) that anyone should be able to politely ask another passenger if they'd mind moving. Polite being the key word. Absolutely it's not ok for anyone to feel coerced into moving. Like I said before, that's definitely unacceptable

Your whole idea is unacceptable.

If, say, you're from an ethnic minority and you're asked to move, you might very well believe - rightly or wrongly - that it's because the passenger simply doesn't like sitting next to a person of your race. That would be very hurtful.

Frankly, if you cannot bear to sit next to a person of one sex - and obviously there's a 50% chance you might have to on any given flight - then you pay to make special arrangements when booking your flight, or you grin and bear it. Demanding - or even 'politely asking' - that other passengers move to accommodate your wishes is obnoxious.

Advance booking will not guarantee the sex of the person you are sitting next to unless you book the whole row.

I'm as uncomfortable with the idea of a woman asking a man to move just because he is a man as I am with a man asking a woman to move just because she is a woman.

One would not expect an airline to tell a Muslim they must find their own Halal meal, nor a person with prostate cancer they couldn't have an aisle seat to ensure ready access to a lavatory.

I agree with the first but not the second, air transport has some restrictions on who can sit where, I'm not allowed in an aisle seat for take of and landing due to disability, I'm also not allowed in the seat by the doors.

A quick google show 5 different airlines fly between Tel Aviv and London, including BA, with BA the men could have booked club or first class tickets and avoided the problem completely.

I agree 100% with @Eastie77's last post.
As she says we're all entitled to our opinions (or perhaps not here). Personally, I enjoy hearing other people's views. It gives me another perspective and it's good to take on board how others see things. But that's just how I feel. Others might disagree.

I stand by my view (which of course others are free to disagree with) that anyone should be able to politely ask another passenger if they'd mind moving. Polite being the key word. Absolutely it's not ok for anyone to feel coerced into moving. Like I said before, that's definitely unacceptable.

Many female rape and DV survivors will feel more comfortable sat next to another woman. Likewise many muslim women. I've not flown for a few years so perhaps things have changed, but advance seat bookings are not always guaranteed.