Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

If the GRA goes through is anyone planning on changing their gender?

82 replies

KenDodd · 27/08/2020 13:58

I mean, if I legally change my gender I don't have to do anything else do I? Still dress and call myself whatever I want? I hope an 18% pay rise will be coming my way though.

OP posts:
Happityhap · 28/08/2020 12:38

@BaronessWrongCrowd

Nah. I'm flying the flag for the gender free. They're not forcing me into one of the TRA silly little tick boxes Grin
Excellent!
KenDodd · 28/08/2020 12:26

From what I've heard, the process is likely to include a statutory declaration where you commit to "live as" your declared gender permanently ... and apparently possible penalties if you don't.

And what are these penalties if I don't live as my legal gender (wtf does 'live as legal gender' even mean?)

Does this mean a young girl living as a boy who gets a GRC would then face legal penalties if they detranstion and gave up the binders and cross sex hormones?

OP posts:
Cailleach1 · 28/08/2020 09:33

Does being able to conceive, go through a pregnancy and give birth to young illustrate you are male or female? Or as we used to call them in human terms 'a man or a woman'?

If you picked up a biology book nowadays, how would the chapter on sexual reproduction sensitively manage that?

ArabellaScott · 28/08/2020 09:15

bogged down by reality

It's a common affliction.

NotBadConsidering · 28/08/2020 09:11

@DrChoppov

then do the most womanly thing possible immediately - get pregnant and give birth - without consequences from that legal panel

That’s a bit judgemental. It may be that Freddy does want to live as a man and believes he is a man, but tolerates the extreme dysphoria caused by being pregnant because of his desperately strong need to have a child. So he manages to cope with 9 months of dysphoria which is temporary for the sake of being able to have children.

Why do that after making a legal declaration then? I made no judgement on Freddy’s intentions. If you asked 10,000 random people what constitutes “living as a man” no one (apart from Stonewall disciples randomly caught up in survey) would say that includes getting pregnant and having a baby. Freddy made that declaration then got pregnant, within weeks. If we were to speculate on Freddy’s intentions, they were either as you say, to live as a man but really wanted a baby so decided to make that legal declaration just before immediately getting pregnant which I judge as an odd way to do things and legally questionable OR knew that making such a legal declaration then having a baby would challenge the notion of “living as a man” and allow to pursue such notions to the High Court. Who knows...

Either way, it demonstrates that the GRC panel has no legal way of setting out beforehand what “living as a man” or “living as a woman” means legally, and they have no means of challenging it if they think someone has deviated from those intentions. And that’s the GRC panel. With judges and everything.

So the possibility of self-declared notions with solicitors being either definable, questioned or revocable is laughable.

Wolfgirrl · 28/08/2020 09:03

Any news on when we can expect an announcement? No surprises that the Tories lied again about it being announced over the summer 🙄

SerenityNowwwww · 28/08/2020 09:00

I don’t actually believe in gender.

Cailleach1 · 28/08/2020 08:58

So, if it is just people not wanting to say sex and using the word gender instead, does that mean the real title is 'The Sex Recognition Act'? Or is the correct title 'The Gender Recognition Act'?

The 'Sex Recognition Act' is slightly problematic as a statement of fact. It is doing the opposite of recognising you sex; it is legally allocating you a different sex. Just my personal thinking. I do acknowledge others aren't bogged down by reality in the same way.

Cailleach1 · 28/08/2020 08:40

So if the definition of woman doesn't include 'adult human female'! I wouldn't even be living as a woman by being a woman? Well, that gives enormous latitude to your self ID. Or is it different when you want to ID as a man? Maybe they aren't a nothing like a woman.

DrChoppov · 28/08/2020 08:35

then do the most womanly thing possible immediately - get pregnant and give birth - without consequences from that legal panel

That’s a bit judgemental. It may be that Freddy does want to live as a man and believes he is a man, but tolerates the extreme dysphoria caused by being pregnant because of his desperately strong need to have a child. So he manages to cope with 9 months of dysphoria which is temporary for the sake of being able to have children.

Cailleach1 · 28/08/2020 08:33

You could really mean it at the time of utterance and signature. Those few minutes. If you are living as a man, a big part of that will be no one getting the right to dismiss your intention in the same way they would if you were a woman. So, if you aren't being regarded as a man for any reason whatsoever, it would be because of the transphobia of others.

MillyMollyFarmer · 28/08/2020 08:26

Can I change it to non-binary? I’m sure I’m under that trans umbrella somehow

Gurufloof · 28/08/2020 07:19

From what I've heard, the process is likely to include a statutory declaration where you commit to "live as" your declared gender permanently
and apparently possible penalties if you don't

The stat declaration was to a solicitor (I think that was meant to impress on us just how legal they were being) but people lie to solicitors all the time, so it's a non starter. Solicitors are not police and dont much care if you break a declaration, nor would they know if you broke it.

Also, in the Scottish proposal (and I imagine in any coming English proposal) there's some sort of waiting period before you'd get the certificate and therefore also a wait before you could change back

The point of self id is to immediately change gender once you figure out which of the 311 you are, Scotland has recently changed its definition of woman, this definition doesn't include adult human female.
And this change back gender is a bit peculiar, there are 311 genders, surely one of them would fit better than "just" male or female ?

Also ask pips bunce what gender they are on a different day, also please ask about gender on passport/DL, and also while your at it ask pips why they veer from masculinity to femme and not try one of the other genders ta.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 28/08/2020 06:52

Overall, I got the impression it would be hard to do it "non-seriously" or to "flip back and forth". I'll let you break that to number 32 of the FTs Business Woman of the Year 2018.

www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/gender-fluid-exec-named-on-list-of-top-100-women-in-business-a3942896.html

Igneococcus · 28/08/2020 06:09

It seems several new conservatives MPs have written to Boris Johnson to urge him to reform the GRA:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a9e0d3fe-e8a5-11ea-9b25-18353d361fa2?shareToken=3b620f597846df0df66b5197c5dbd266

NotBadConsidering · 28/08/2020 05:31

From what I've heard, the process is likely to include a statutory declaration where you commit to "live as" your declared gender permanently ... and apparently possible penalties if you don't.

If Freddy McConnell can have a GRC, declare in front of a legal panel the intention to “live as a man”, then do the most womanly thing possible immediately - get pregnant and give birth - without consequences from that legal panel, then there is no possible way anyone “self identified” will be penalised if they don’t meet particular requirements. It’s more legal fiction being created. What are those requirements? How are they defined? How would anyone prove one way or another?

It’s utter madness that laws that are even more vague and unenforceable than the ones we have now are being proposed.

GCYY · 28/08/2020 05:04

@KenDodd

I mean, if I legally change my gender I don't have to do anything else do I? Still dress and call myself whatever I want? I hope an 18% pay rise will be coming my way though.
From what I've heard, the process is likely to include a statutory declaration where you commit to "live as" your declared gender permanently ... and apparently possible penalties if you don't. And I think something like that was in the Scottish proposals too. Not certain what that commitment would entail but I can imagine it might be seen as a sign of "breaking" that commitment if you didn't consistently use toilets etc of the gender your had declared. It would probably also mean you'd be expected to change the sex/gender on your driver's license, passport etc. and that not doing so could also be seen as a sign of breaking the commitment in the statutory declaration.

Also, in the Scottish proposal (and I imagine in any coming English proposal) there's some sort of waiting period before you'd get the certificate and therefore also a wait before you could change back.

Overall, I got the impression it would be hard to do it "non-seriously" or to "flip back and forth".

DrChoppov · 27/08/2020 23:23

It does use sex in the legislation. People don’t like to say sex it’s a naughty word so they say gender.

Fallingirl · 27/08/2020 23:02

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

persistentwoman · 27/08/2020 22:48

I have every intention of being as confusing as possible for any organisation that is anti science / facts and uses the gender bollx on surveys, questionnaires etc. If they can be fact deniers then they're fair game.

Cailleach1 · 27/08/2020 22:09

Why is it called the Gender Recognition Act then? Why not use sex?

DrChoppov · 27/08/2020 22:06

It’s sex. The GRA changes your legal sex.

Yeah why not! For shits and giggles.

chilling19 · 27/08/2020 22:00

Hmm - I might do this. He/him pronouns i think.

Cailleach1 · 27/08/2020 21:19

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

BrassicaRabbit · 27/08/2020 21:15

Exactly. And since so much of the pressure to believe in gender ideology seems to be coming from people's employers... Wouldn't it be nice for uterus bearers to know they have a bit of job protection next time they take maternity (paternity?) leave?