Ann Sinnott is asking for clarity on guidance for the Equality Act

Another £40 and it will be 15.

It's payday for a lot of people tomorrow, I expect there will be lots of digging then.

My spade is poised and ready.

That was to Thefleegle.

Indeed.

It's payday for a lot of people tomorrow, I expect there will be lots of digging then.

Do let's not get derailed! Let's focus on the provisions that the EA makes to protect sex as a characteristic

Ah, the merailing is in full flow.

14000 reasons why...

Over 14

Well said boatyardblues.

Non trans women? Now that is demeaning.

I’m seeing some grade A derailing on this thread. Let’s get back to Ann’s excellent legal challenge and the quality of the gardening around these parts.

non trans women

The word women works fine thanks.

I don't think you understand just how demeaning for all involved it would be if a trans woman walked into the gents toilets where a bunch of guys are using the urinal
How is it demeaning?

It's not women's problem or concern what facilities male born individuals use.

Only what they don't use.

Hence Ann demanding legal clarification.

But expecting trans women to use the men's room shows an utter disregard for our safety and dignity. Do you honestly think that's acceptable in a society that respects the rights of minorities?

Expecting female people to give up their right to single sex spaces shows an utter disregard for their safety and dignity. Do you honestly think that's acceptable in a society that respects the rights of females as 51% of the population?

And please weigh 'demeaning' for male people to be denied an alternative to their existing provision, with 'no access to services or provision at all' for female people who cannot use mixed sex spaces.

Why do TW matter but female people don't?

Thanks for this info I got my spade out and dug a bit for this

I don't think you understand just how demeaning for all involved it would be if a trans woman walked into the gents toilets where a bunch of guys are using the urinal.

The problem is we're not allowed to question anyone who says they are trans. If a man says he is a woman, we're not allowed to question it for fear of transphobic accusations.

This means (because of the misinterpretations of the EA this thread is actually about) he can access the ladies.

Do you understand how demeaning it is for a 16 year old girl to be filmed getting undressed inside a cubicle? Or how demeaning it is for a woman to be filmed on the toilet by a camera on a shoe?

It’s your problem because you are choosing to use facilities which are not for you by social convention and by law. For the safety and dignity of half of the world. You are free to use the facilities that match your sex and campaign for greater acceptance among men.

Why is it demeaning?

Just out of interest, what DO you expect trans women to do when they need a pee and the only loos available are single sex?

Use the toilet of their sex.

Or get Stonewall to use some of that £££ to actually help in providing (or at least campaigning for) third spaces. When they're not too busy throwing sportswomen under the bus, that is.

It's not women's problem. We're not collateral damage.

I don't think you understand just how demeaning for all involved it would be if a trans woman walked into the gents toilets where a bunch of guys are using the urinal.

As for it "not being your problem", I could turn that one around and ask why it's MY problem if some non trans women object to sharing facilities (with cubicles) with me.

I hate using the ladies loos, and use a gender neutral alternative whenever it's available. But expecting trans women to use the men's room shows an utter disregard for our safety and dignity. Do you honestly think that's acceptable in a society that respects the rights of minorities?

My hypothesis is that TW are more at risk from male violence if they use women’s facilities as opposed to the men’s - fathers seeing an adult male going into the toilet/changing room after their DDs etc.
This.
I'm sure I have read reports of this happening, but I don't remember reading reports of transwomen being assaulted in the gents'.

Just out of interest, what DO you expect trans women to do when they need a pee and the only loos available are single sex?

Use the toilets that match their sex. Campaign for 3rd spaces. Tena Pads. As already mentioned, it's not a problem for women to sort out.

Just out of interest, what DO you expect trans women to do when they need a pee and the only loos available are single sex?

Like PPs - not sure why this question is directed at women - not our problem. This is one for blokes to sort out. Men who support TW in woman's spaces need to stop being transphobic themselves and be inclusive of all men - irrespective of how they identify.

So I have just asked DH. He thinks most men don’t actually care how TW present and would prefer TW to pee next to him, than his DDs, DW and DM.

Also - My hypothesis is that TW are more at risk from male violence if they use women’s facilities as opposed to the men’s - fathers seeing an adult male going into the toilet/changing room after their DDs etc.