MGTOW. Wtaf?

What would be really interesting would be if MGTOWs and radical feminists, despite the striking conflict of so many of their views, were to converge from opposite directions on the central insight they seem to have in common: that models of relationship and marriage based on outdated, power-based gender stereotypes are bad for EVERYONE.

Despite incels being a bit more repugnant, I think there are quite a few similarities between extreme feminism and MRAs.

Don't forget the branch of incels who "become women" just for the benefits--this group of people don't call themselves transgender, they call themselves transmaxxers. There's a huge subreddit on the subject:

www.reddit.com/r/transmaxxing/

The Guardian article was free publicity for the book by the author ie Laura Bates wrote an article to promote her book.

Typical of the Guardian instead of covering in the news the growth of incel culture, and the overlap with mass shootings and domestic violence, they instead help promote the career of one of their employee's who is attempting to appropriate information that is widely written about on social media and other papers.

The Guardian isn't a newspaper. It is a small clique of friends promoting each other and their politics. A bit like how the Tory Government forms policy!

New book out next week - seems apposite for this thread.

www.simonandschuster.co.uk/books/Men-Who-Hate-Women/Laura-Bates/9781471194337

What would be really interesting would be if MGTOWs and radical feminists, despite the striking conflict of so many of their views, were to converge from opposite directions on the central insight they seem to have in common: that models of relationship and marriage based on outdated, power-based gender stereotypes are bad for EVERYONE.

I actually think it's positive and potentially fruitful that a visible cohort of men (rather than just individual non-conformists, who have always existed) are coming round to challenging society's brainwashing that everybody needs a relationship - and preferably an officially approved straight one involving marriage and children - to be whole. That it's been left to a bunch of horrendously misogynist, right wing gun toting throwbacks to do it is a shame, but valid content can come from surprising sources.

Indeed. I do think that a lot of it is online based though. The internet has the capacity to being together the minority of loonies who otherwise would likely be such a minority that they wouldn't even register.

generally the man is still the one who's expected to make the first move, so men that aren't confident or 'alpha' will likely struggle much more than shy women. I also think that lack of financial success is less of a handicap to women than men in terms of dating

Yes, some of these will have arisen from past cultural and evolutionary requirements, but have morphed into the sort of rigid gendered stereotypes that affect men and women in so many ways. Some people might not be that bothered by them, especially if they are outgoing, confident, attractive and so on, but for many of us these kinds of expectations will affect us.

The MGTOW types haven't realised that if they let go of such stereotypes and expectations (and looked for women who were also willing to let go of gendered expectations) then they might be a lot happier in themselves. Instead of projecting their unhappiness at their gender roles as the fault of 'evil' women, they need to grasp that rigid expectations are imposed on both sexes and repeatedly reinforced by everyone through cultural and societal forces throughout history. Much easier to rant and whine at someone else as the source of all your problems though.

It's the whole negativity that undermines the MGTOW movement - instead of learning to be happy being on their own or forming uplifting and positive friendships with other men, maybe even creating a commune. Angry, self-absorbed, anonymous rants online are so pointless.

This. There are plenty of (heterosexual) men who choose to live single but productive lives without making a song and dance about it. I really don't mind if some men do not want to be involved with women, to a certain extent I can even understand it, (how many times have we mused about a private women's island/commune free from men). Its the whining and moaning that goes along with the MTGOW movement that irritates me.

It reminds me of toddler tantrums.... actually maybe that's why they behave that way. men who make a considered choice to be single are at ease with their choice and 't need to create a movement, but maybe MTGOW is just a reactionary group which is why they need to attention?

MGTOW is old news. I ran across them back in 2014 or so because they have some horrible Paul Proteus YouTube videos about “Leave The Bitch” if she has any mental illness because “the bitch is crazy” etc. Lots of ignorance about mental health and behaviour. They espouse Nast misogynistic things like “pump and dump” and see women as only worth whatever their sexual attractiveness is based on age and beauty and child status.

They are not to be confused with MRAs who are quite different.

He then says well women don’t mind us going to war..I’m like you lot probably started the war in the first place.

Gotta say I've never really understood this argument. I may share my biological sex with a Taliban fighter but likely have little else in common. It seems a bit like saying we're all responsible for human violence.

There’s one at my work and I have said yes please do bloody go your way. He then says well women don’t mind us going to war..I’m like you lot probably started the war in the first place.

It makes you think...when posters mention incel terror attacks, I can’t think of any lone female serial killers or any serial killers who attacked heterosexual men? Women, children and gay men are the usual victims. The Yorkshire Ripper terrorised women in the North for many years.

There must be lots of women who experience resentment for not fitting with the objectified 'ideal female' stereotype, yet they don't seem to turn into groups planning violent retribution. I think 'incels' initially included women as well. It's the male entitlement, arrogance and aggression that's the problem.

Women who fit feminine attributes well are also rewarded. I think this is a fact of human life - good looking women and men who fit societal norms and expectations have usually had greater opportunities for relationships, status and respect etc throughout history.

Agreed.

An aggravating factor may also be the fact that generally the man is still the one who's expected to make the first move, so men that aren't confident or 'alpha' will likely struggle much more than shy women. I also think that lack of financial success is less of a handicap to women than men in terms of dating (even if the basis is likely sexism - the view of man as the provider etc). Plenty of normal sized men seem happy to date a larger woman too, but you don't see many fat men with slim women unless they're rich (the man, that is).

Still no excuse but possibly contributing factors. It seems to me that the MGTOW community isn't just eschewing women but rather the whole patriarchal sociological status quo.

They do seem full of self-pity and are constantly whinging about women, which only makes them come across as pathetic. Too much negativity and paranoia and focus on 'evil' women. Nothing positive or based on self-development, self-esteem etc. Sherratt in the article accurately identified the problem - these online communities centre women way too much instead of actually putting in the effort to live their lives away from women.

I don't see anything inherently wrong with male separatism, in the same way I don't see what's wrong with female separatism. Neither are likely to appeal to a significant portion of the human population, but it might be useful to some. I think it's healthy to a certain extent to cultivate a level of independence, self-respect and resilience in either sex. Marriage and relationships can be good, but they shouldn't define you as a person or necessarily be the end goal of your life. We are hardwired to want companionship, but that doesn't mean your life is a failure or devoid of happiness if you prefer to eschew romantic relationships and focus on other things.

It's the whole negativity that undermines the MGTOW movement - instead of learning to be happy being on their own or forming uplifting and positive friendships with other men, maybe even creating a commune. Angry, self-absorbed, anonymous rants online are so pointless.

Level three requires economic disengagement (reducing taxation as far as possible, in order to avoid paying towards the support of other groups, from “elite alphas” to “single mothers”).

Oh dear.... Someone needs to explain to them how money is created and how it works. Taxation doesn't 'pay for' anything in modern economies. 😂

ForrestTrump I assumed that resentment at not being the ideal male is the underlying factor in most incel/MGTOW types.

There must be lots of women who experience resentment for not fitting with the objectified 'ideal female' stereotype, yet they don't seem to turn into groups planning violent retribution. I think 'incels' initially included women as well. It's the male entitlement, arrogance and aggression that's the problem.

Women who fit feminine attributes well are also rewarded. I think this is a fact of human life - good looking women and men who fit societal norms and expectations have usually had greater opportunities for relationships, status and respect etc throughout history.

There seem to be some pretty questionable
individuals in the incel/MGTOW scene but I do also wonder if some of.the resentment comes from them not fitting the objectified 'ideal male' stereotype.

I often think that, despite all the criticism if toxic masculinity, women still reward men who wear those attributes well - the tall, muscular, dominant, successful, assertive men. All women generally want equal pay but a significant number also value high earner status in a partner.

[quote CallarMorvern]Not even sure what to say?

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/aug/26/men-going-their-own-way-the-toxic-male-separatist-movement-that-is-now-mainstream[/quote]
First read about these nutters in Kill All Normies by Angela Nagle. They sound like a self pitying version of the women separatists I knew in the 80s.

Just to add to the grim list the Montreal Massacre although not the first act of violence against women / feminists, was the first that the media recognised as being motivated by that.

And was recognised as such officially 30 years later theconversation.com/the-montreal-massacre-is-finally-recognized-as-an-anti-feminist-attack-128450

More articles on the Vancouver Rape Relief web site www.rapereliefshelter.bc.ca/montreal-massacre

It seems odd for the Guardian to pick out a tiny fragment of the anti-women propaganda that is written online and do an article about it.

It seems this is just one chapter from a whole book about online misogynists. I just read an interview with the author. Interview was conducted by Zoe Williams but still interesting to read. www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/aug/27/laura-bates-on-the-men-who-hate-women-idolise-murderers

CallarMorvern

I think what may have happened when you and I were growing up, particularly if you went to a single sex school, did create as sort of who are these aliens people (for both sexes).

But what is happening now, is more than the everyday sexism of our childhoods (gender stereotypes, etc.) but an actual organised philosophy that perpetuates the idea of women as being hateful, deserving of violence and so on.

If a group formed to write about another group based on their race or religion they would be talked about as being racist or anti followers of a religion. And some might be called domestic terrorists.

But when men organise against women and promote violence it is just boys being boys, or worse still girls weren't nice to them when they were growning up, so of course they are hurt and need sympathy.

It is typical Guardian. They aren't really interested in feminism, or wider news reporting.

This article is just one long promotion for one of their own ie a journalist has written a book so they have given her a lot of space to write a puff piece.

It is much too important an issue for it just to become a passing fancy for someone who has been encouraged to feel they can get books published even when they are not qualified to do the subject justice.

So much of the media is now just about themselves and each other.

Whether print media or tv.

And when they run out of that they just look at twitter (one of the least used social media platforms globally) and make out that what is being said there is news, whereas it is little more than the usual drunks down the local pub.

It seems odd for the Guardian to pick out a tiny fragment of the anti-women propaganda that is written online and do an article about it.
It's got to be seen in a wider context surely of MRA's and men generally harassing and intimidating women online, not just a fringe group of cranks.

If there's a 'crisis of masculinity' it's way beyond time society examined its assumptions about sex roles.

But no. Really, no. There isn't a way to be male. There is a way to be a decent, considerate human being, and the bits that concern being male are to do with physiology, and not trying to put your physiology where it's not wanted.

Literally terrified of independent women. I hope they all reach level 4 and find isolation away from any women.

Here are just a few depressing (and frightening) links that show even other men are aware of this male sub(?) culture but it is not policed in the same way as a fundamentalist terrorist group would be.

A new series of memes are being shared on social media platforms, including 4Chan and the 8Chan replacement EndChan. These memes visually connect violent Incel culture – an offshoot of Pick Up Artist culture from the ‘Manosphere’ – to violent radical right culture using gendered logics of masculine shame and redemption. Ultimately the visual rhetoric of these memes poses violent mass murder within a frame of sanctified dominance as a pathway for disaffected young (white) men to recover their “proper” masculinity.
www.opendemocracy.net/en/countering-radical-right/manifesto-memes-the-radical-rights-new-dangerous-visual-rhetorics/

Some self-identified incels, as they call themselves, have developed an elaborate sociopolitical explanation for their sexual failures, one that centers on the idea that women are shallow, vicious, and only attracted to hyper-muscular men. They see this as a profound injustice against men like them, who suffer an inherent genetic disadvantage through no fault of their own. A small radical fringe believes that violence, especially against women, is an appropriate response — that an “Incel Rebellion” or “Beta [Male] Uprising” will eventually overturn the sexual status quo.
www.vox.com/world/2018/4/25/17277496/incel-toronto-attack-alek-minassian

Women experience intimate partner violence, stalking, and rape at higher levels than men. These disparities are particularly pronounced for stalking and rape, for which women are approximately 74% and 90% of victims (Smith et al., 2018). These statistics reflect a societal issue with gender-based violence that exists in countries across the world. The United States, however, is unique in that it has the highest mass shooting incidence rate in the globe, which disproportionately affects women (Christensen, 2017; “Global Firearms Holdings,” 2018). Family and romantic partners are targeted in 54% of mass shootings, leading to an overrepresentation of women and children compared with single-victim gun homicides (Everytown for Gun Safety, 2017; United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, 2013). Various shooters have an explicit history of gender-based violence, further suggesting that mass and gender-based violence are intertwined (e.g., Lopez, 2017; Sakuma, 2019). Despite these patterns, and that men commit 94.4% of mass shootings, policy and mainstream debate tend to neglect a gender approach (Ramsey, 2015).
journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1557085119896415

Nailing down the motive behind a mass shooting is often difficult. Most shooters tend to be driven by a poisonous blend of entrenched grievances, personal setbacks, depression, rage, suicidal urges, and in some cases, serious behavioral disorders or mental illness. Rarely can their actions be explained definitively by a single factor. However, Mother Jones’ in-depth database of mass shootings reveals a stark pattern of misogyny and domestic violence among many attackers. This factor is already relatively well known in cases where men gun down intimate partners, children, and other family members in their own or other people’s homes. There is also a strong overlap between toxic masculinity and public mass shootings, according to our latest investigation.
www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2019/06/domestic-violence-misogyny-incels-mass-shootings/

And it is important to be aware of them, as there have been cases of violence against women (and I think one terrorist act) where the men concerned have had internet interactions with other incels.

Two. There were the Isla Vista killings at UCSB. Then there was a copycat attack in Canada where a man mowed down and killed 10 people and claimed to have been inspired by the Isla Vista killer.

These people hate women but feel they are entitled to sex with them, whether they consent to it or not. So much for 'GTOW'.

A PP nailed it: they're both pathetic and dangerous. It's the pathetic ones who are actually more dangerous IME.