Writing to restaurants and cafes with single-sex loos - anyone want to join me?

Totally agree.

Went in one the other day with DD (11) , approached a cubicle with the door open, so assumed it was empty. No there's a bloke stood there with the door open just pissing. I said "can you please close the door" and he just looked round not bothered at all, dick hanging out.

I'm sorry but I do not want my 11 year old daughter looking at adult men with their dicks out when going into a public toilet

We then went to another loo which had piss all over the seat where some disgusting filthy man couldn't aim.

I was so angry about it.

I wonder how many small businesses wading through this are going to wonder about having no toilet provision at all ? Especially since COVID has reduced the number of seats that might have tripped the threshold for provision ?

There’s a difference between one horse establishments that have one loo and larger eateries/ entertainment venues where one has a reasonable expectation that they will cater to the majority clientele’s preferences in terms of facilities. I avoid the only restaurant in my town with a mixed sex loo. I don’t like powdering my nose/ putting my lipstick on watched by a strange man. You might feel otherwise- good for you.
Likewise there is no way I would be allowing my 8 year old daughter to have her first wee bit of freedom in going to a public loo on her own rather than accompanied by parent if there’s a chance she would be alone in an enclosed space with a strange man. That’s not because I hate men but because I’m a parent and I risk assess that the presence of strange men increases risk to females.
I have experience of mixed sex loos in Denmark and Sweden. My personal experience has been very long queues and dirty facilities as they seem to have just shut one of the loos and filtered everyone through one of them. Friends there hate it too. There’s no peace / time to wrap a headscarf do ritual washing or brush hair etc as it’s a case of getting in and out ASAP.

Can someone link me the legislation that says that unisex toilets have to have the sink in the stall space and that a shared sink is illegal please.

OneEpisode posted this earlier

Search your local authority. Nationwide links are in here womansplaceuk.org/toilets/

Having followed that link myself, and reading the page womansplaceuk.org/2020/02/27/mixed-sex-toilets-model-letter/
there are different laws for eg schools, or local authorities.

But if you read the template / model letter it’s pretty comprehensive and outlines the relevant legislation for most circumstances.
womansplaceuk.org/2020/02/27/mixed-sex-toilets-model-letter/

For eg Public Authorities, the letter recommends this:

“The desegregation of toilets may be in contravention of government guidance, given within the British Standards (British Standard, BS 6465 Part One on Sanitary installations) and the related Building Regulations which sets out the levels of male/female toilet provision required. The linked Building Regulation Part G on water and sanitation provides the basis for the application of these British Standards (DCLG, 2016).“

The linked Building Regulation quoted above is here and is 55 pages. I have scanned it. See G4 and G5 starting on page 28

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/504207/BR_PDF_AD_G_2015_with_2016_amendments.pdf

There was a toilet at a theatre last year which had stalls (like men's had stalls and urinals and woman's had a bunch of stalls, like a normal airport bathroom for example) and they had simply covered up the "men's" "women's" signs and made them gender neutral. Many guests were distressed by this and it really just made it so that men could pee anywhere, since having a room of urinals available to women is really NOT gender neutral.

I really do not mind when single occupancy bathrooms are gender neutral, but to have a normal public bathroom made "gender neutral" with no renovations is ridiculous.

I am not scared of a trans person using a dif gender toilet, I am pissed that men can now piss all over every toilet.

links about regs

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/3004/contents/made

regulation 20

www.hse.gov.uk/contact/faqs/toilets.htm

womansplaceuk.org/gender-neutral-toilets-dont-work-for-women-2/

It is however illegal to treat one sex less fairly than the other isn't it?

So if an establishment makes the ladies "inclusive" whilst keeping the mens as " inclusive with urinals " which of course only males can use, then effectively they have increased provision for males as they have exclusive use of the urinals and the cubicles in the mens as no women wants to use a toilet when they have to walk past urinals, and the males also have the women's.

serendipity

Just ask disabled people, there is no segregation by sex in most disabled facilities. I’d imagine most disabled people aren’t so much concerned at the sex of who used it before them, just that it is clean, not barricaded in with spare restaurant chairs or used as a cleaners cupboard and that they don’t have to wait 20 minutes while a parent uses the changing table for a poonami.

It's really much much easier to just not go out. And getting more so.

I totally agree that unisex fully self contained toilet facilities are fine, these are most common in small establishments and one national trust cafe we used to go to had some really nice onces

Just ask disabled people, there is no segregation by sex in most disabled facilities. I’d imagine most disabled people aren’t so much concerned at the sex of who used it before them, just that it is clean, not barricaded in with spare restaurant chairs or used as a cleaners cupboard and that they don’t have to wait 20 minutes while a parent uses the changing table for a poonami.

There are so many considerations when planning facilities in different establishments as discussed above. I think my main issue is when there is an ideological (or lazy virtue-signalling) attack on women’s facilities, particularly in locations which are inherently less safe or where people have no choice but to use them, such as hospitals and prisons.

Can someone link me the legislation that says that unisex toilets have to have the sink in the stall space and that a shared sink is illegal please.

I think the confusion for some people is what unisex re toilets means.

When I think of, or talk about unisex loos I mean a single occupancy space (a small, fully enclosed room, with a sink, and sanpro bin).

The OP is talking about a larger room for use by either sex with individual cubicles, and shared communal sinks.

Single occupancy loos are usually by design unisex. Most people are happy with this when they are for eg public loos, or in smaller establishments.
Snoringferret this sounds like your set up.

Most people are not happy with the layout as described in the OP.

In large venues ie malls, cinemas, etc I think most people would prefer large single sex spaces with individual cubicles (and urinals for the men’s) and communal sinks because of buggies, shopping, young children, etc and if possible a seperate family room.

Why can’t be ask for what we need any more. I hear that some people don’t have a problem, but what about those that do. Surely that is the only way to look at it? A room for use of parents with children if there is room , but don’t get rid of the women only ones. To be fair changing rooms are of concern, and we must keep our guard up...

Well, Fortnum & Mason's and The Royal Opera House are definitely not the sort of places I tend to frequent!

Most half decent places have switched to the floor to ceiling layout.

As far as I'm aware it is not essential that the basin is in the cubicle for it to be acceptable as mixed sex /unisex.

I have no problem whatsoever with unisex/ mixed sex in restaurants or theatres. My personal preference is floor to ceiling cubicles. I really don't like cubicles with gaps.

And I'm still waiting to hear what "agenda" I'm supposed to have.

Well, Fortnum & Mason's and The Royal Opera House are definitely not the sort of places I tend to frequent!

However, I am satisfied with single sex toilets with no gaps, as in I would not boycott somewhere because of that. But I prefer the layout I mentioned as best for all women. I do not feel at all likely to collapse or fall ill within a toilet cubicle, but I would like to think that any woman who did become unwell, would be noticed and helped.

You do not make it clear whether these establishments have facilities with multiple enclosed cubicles (rooms) with a separate bank of hand basins, within a larger room, or whether they are completely individual and open onto a corridor, so I cannot comment further upon risk of assault, and waiting times (as per my quoted post).

I'm still waiting to know what "agenda" I'm supposed to have because I don't support the OP on this.

I own a business and we have three loos, all unisex, one disabled access.

Please don't write to small businesses and basically put them in a situation that they cannot win.

I am completely gender critical but I have unisex toilets because this is what works best. They are all private fully enclosed and clean, I clean them four times a day and I promise you there are no spy cams as I check.

I can't tell you how devastated I would be to be dragged into this fight, whole businesses could be lost when we're already on our knees because of Covid.

There's no way for business to win this, they are either branded transphobes or misogynists.

Please please don't go after small businesses.

Anyone who has worked in a pub or club will know that the idea that the women's toilets will be pristine at the end of night is complete bollocks.

Well I agree that the toilets in establishments where people are often drunk, are likely to be disgusting regardless of sex of users.

But IME this is not the case in cafes, restaurants, shops, service stations, theatres, cinemas, etc. Women's toilets in these places are almost always much cleaner.

It is horrid if a woman has dripped urine on the seat and left it there, but I find it far worse in a unisex facility to find the seat up, with urine down the front of the bowl and on the floor surrounding the toilet. And sometimes all over the back of the toilet too

I used to think I wasn't bothered about unisex loos, & when I had a big for his age small boy alongside 2 younger sisters, they'd have been a bloody godsend, honestly.

But I don't think anyone is arguing against additional unisex spaces - just against the removal of all female only provision.

I would tend not to go with a group of friends to a restaurant that I knew had only unisex loos unless I was sure everyone would be fine with it (I live in the ME & am fairly confident that barely anyone I know here would think it ok...), but I save my greater ire for facilities in schools/hospitals/prisons where women have no choice but to use whatever provision is there. It's not SO important if it's a bar or restaurant & you can just take your custom elsewhere.

I'd let a restaurant know though, if they were doing a customer survey or asked me if I was happy, that unisex toilets put me off to an extent & meant I'd have to think about returning, depending on who I was eating with.

I sort of get it for quaint little olde tea shoppe places. There's a tiny cafe my parents sometimes pop into in their village, which has one standard & one bigger, accessible toilet, & absolutely nowhere to put a third. So both are unisex (& spotless, to be fair).

As a substantial majority of their clientele are female (school run in the morning, local elderly ladies for lunch) & more than averagely pushing prams or using a wheelchair, I do see where they're coming from. (My dad always pops over the road to the public loos because he just feels uncomfortable using a toilet he sees as 'well it's really the Ladies').

Although I my h prefer toilets separated by sex, I've cleaned supermarket loos and to be honest, women are as filthy as men

Indeed.

Anyone who has worked in a pub or club will know that the idea that the women's toilets will be pristine at the end of night is complete bollocks.

Grim choice as it is I would rather deal with piss on the floor and petty vandalism in the mens toilets then picking up used tampons off the floor of the ladies.

Goosefoot.

If you look up history on toilets. And why women campaign Ed for toilets. I think at one time it was called the urinary leash

I don’t see the women have been campaigning for uni sex toilets

It is important

It’s not just ignore it stuff it’s just toilets

It’s important when we are out and about

But what counts as a single sex facility? And where are the needed?

The OP has asked for support boycotting particular places without the arrangements she accepts. Which is rather vague.

If you asked people about specific legislation that dealt with different kinds of situations - what you need in a facility that serves so many people, what the exact construction of toilets can be, etc, you might get some opinions. Most women don't want to go into a large bus station toilet in the night where there might be men.

But restaurants have lots of different arrangements depending on their age, the size. Some people are ok with individual cubicles with independent sinks and others aren't. Some people aren't.

It's not surprising that people aren't jumping on a boycott when they don't even know what it might really include.

[quote Thelnebriati]@Knobblybobbly
Lol..... spy cameras? Seriously?!*

www.thesun.co.uk/news/12430560/sainsburys-worker-filmed-colleagues-camera/[/quote]
Indeed.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/women-spy-cameras-hidden-public-places-peeping-toms-a8689626.html%3Famp

Peeping toms are installing clandestine cameras in rental and student properties or public spaces including toilets, swimming pool cubicles, changing rooms and tanning salons, in an attempt to capture explicit photos of women without their consent.

We have got a problem with voyeurism in the UK. I have come across awful convictions. People are not particularly well informed about the problem. In some cases, the victims are never going to be aware. I suspect it goes on an awful lot more than we think.