Stonewall Lobby World Rugby

Are there any mixes sex rugby teams?

Professionally, no. And not for contact rugby.

I've played adults Tag Rugby (pull a velcro tail off instead of a physical tackle) and games can be mixed. There are strict limits about the gender/sex ratio, and differences in scoring between male and female players to keep it fair and to allow women to participate fully in the game (otherwise the guys would basically just pass the ball between each other).

Even then, it can be quite intimidating to play on a mixed team. It's a foul for an attacking player to run into a defender. But I've been completely wiped out because I stood my ground defending and a guy, who assumed I'd jump out of the way, ran straight into me at full speed.

the public are not in favour and Stonewall decide that's where they want to park their tanks.

A thought - I wonder if this is the tactic that led to attempts to put transwomen in women's prisons? Tackle the least popular, most outrageous angles first, shift the window of what is considered rational, then it seems almost okay to allow transwomen to play, say, women's badminton. Even though it would still be massively unfair.

On the other hand despite them locking down comments, stonewall’s tweet has been ratioed by retweets. Overwhelmingly to the negative.

The discussion really is around ‘allowing some of the most vulnerable’ people play vs the now documented danger to the female players. The twitter convos I have watched over the past month are bonkers in the complete disregard for women’s safety vs validation. It has caused many rugby fans to start seeing the ideological basis that has indoctrinated ‘be kind’ to such a degree.

And the blind faith of those proclaiming that inclusivity is more important. To the point where there are those who believe that all women’s sports be abolished and only open sports be allowed. Because a) some women have biological advantages over other women so therefore it was never fair. B) people like Serena Williams should have to play men because women should just try harder to beat males. Being the best female is nothing. c) what about the people with DSDs and d) tw have always been women and does anyone saying that they aren’t exclude women choosing not to have children or that have fertility issues in their definition of women. And it goes on...

Really it makes my head hurt the lack of truthful discussion that refers to the facts.

Unlikely to fairly win a place on a man’s team surely? Are there any mixes sex rugby teams?

Mixed sex rugby isn't allowed after under 11s. I doubt any rugby club would get insurance if they went down this route

I’d be surprised if Stonewall are bothered about Transmen. Mostly they seem very focused on transwomen.

It’s hugely dangerous for men to play on women’s teams. That’s why we don’t have mixed teams. I won’t let my teenage girl play against boys in rugby because it’s not safe. The more they push this utter crap the whole rainbow will come crashing on them.

Its also incredibly selfish. I cant imagine what the man who breaks the neck of the transman just by tackling or accidently falling on them would feel. Would he ever feel he could play again.

Well exactly. Of course stonewall aren't arsed about transmen as they are biologically women and eurgh women, but it's a very valid point and one often overlooked.

Unlikely to fairly win a place on a man’s team surely? Are there any mixes sex rugby teams?

I’ve played on mixed sex touch rugby teams.

Full contact is not mixed sex for obvious reasons.

I don't think that transmen should be allowed to play in male teams either.

The difference here is that one individual (transman playing on a men's team) with increased risk can be briefed on their risk and sign a waiver saying that they are aware of the risk and want to play anyway.

One individual who increases risk to all other players (transwoman in a women's team) cannot make the unilateral decision that this OK because her right to equality exceeds everyone else's right to safety.

That post was great. It's amplified how ridiculous it is. Think Stonewall have really overreached on this one. Last time I looked it had been retweeted 1.2K times. It's a great way to show them up for what they are. A big misjudgement on their part. 99.9% of people think it's insane.

I really don't think World Rugby are going to budge on this.

They've been really up on preventing dangerous tackles and concussion over the last few years. They also ran a very rigorous, open consultation to determine their current policy, involving transgender campaigning organisations, representatives from women's sporting groups, and a lot of sports physiologists who are very careful and nuanced in what they say, but who are not going to deny the very real biological differences between ciswomen and transwomen.

There's a decent article that summarises the World Rugby position, and lays out all their reasoning here:
www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/the-detail/story/2018757712/the-science-of-transgender-women-in-sport

Sometimes, people have to be protected from themselves

Agreed. Rightly or wrongly, I feel that anyone who would agree to put themselves in the position of almost certain danger of severe physical harm needs help.

Its also incredibly selfish. I cant imagine what the man who breaks the neck of the transman just by tackling or accidently falling on them would feel.
Would he ever feel he could play again.

That's not fair. No one wins in that situation at all. And hurt feelings or not, there are others on a team who need consideration

I don't think that transmen should be allowed to play in male teams either.

Agreed, the risk of injury to a transman would be significant, equally they couldn't play in women's teams because of doping rules.

My son is 16 - solid muscle as he does a lot of sports/martial arts. His cousin is a strapping firefighter - does regular training, fit as a flea, strong as an ox (also has a few inches in him).

He could take her down (night be a struggle as she used to compete in martial arts and play college sports - but he could).

Trans people don't need to be excluded from sports, just sports where they're a physical danger to other weaker players.

I’m sorry not just where they are a physical danger. Women’s sport is women’s sport. No room for males at all. No physical danger in running just a stonking physiological advantage.

Transwomen are not excluded - they can still play on teams with members of their own sex. Transmen are the ones who are likely to be excluded. Are Stonewall campaigning for them to play on women's or men's teams? They should be excluded from women's teams if they are doping with testosterone (as any other woman would be), but there would be a huge risk to them if they played on men's teams.

I don't think that transmen should be allowed to play in male teams either.

Serious injuries happen in rugby, and the guilt a player would feel after injuring someone who is physically weaker, slower and smaller because of their sex could also be life altering.

I'd not allow my teenage son to play against female people, no matter how convinced that female person was that they'd manage. It's unsafe and the potential consequences to my son are unacceptable.

Sometimes, people have to be protected from themselves.

I'm starting to think Stonewall is starting to lose it's grip.

Maya has commented on Twitter
The ratios on this are stark

There are 1,671 people who could have commented in support of this tweet: 0 did

@stonewalluk has 209K followers: the tweet got 273 likes

1.3K retweeted with critical comments, many got thousands of likes

^#nodebate is failing @NancyMK t.co/JmhFxCV0SV^

What pisses me off the most about this, and shows Stonewall up for what it is, is there is zero concern for the women who will get seriously injured, no concern about lost sporting opportunities for women. It's all about men's feeling.

Stonewall are a disgrace and no wonder they disabled replieds on that tweet. Cowards.

It all feels so sinister, doesn't it? Why limit who can comment if you're so sure what you're saying is acceptable?

Trans people don't need to be excluded from sports, just sports where they're a physical danger to other weaker players.

Why can't they accept that it's not someone's gender identity that's going to be crashing into a smaller female player, it's their physical body.

At least they're showing everyone how much they disregard the safety of women, even with the evidence in front of them. Not a lobby group any organisation should be taking seriously.

The major area where opinion polls show that the public are not in favour and Stonewall decide that's where they want to park their tanks.

Thanks you lot for pointing out the stupidity.

This is where men start to support women and take notice.

Thankfully the majority of rugby's rulings bodies are made up of former players who have been on the receiving end of "hard tackles " so fully understand the danger and damage that a male bodied person would do to a female. Which is why they saying rugby must be a single sex sport.

Also if I remember the stats correctly the increased risk of women being severely injured is 30% no insurance underwriter would accept that risk either.

Agree with Roswell. Amplify it. The more people hear 'males should be allowed to play rugby/wrestling with females' the more people start to ask questions. And we know what happens then. We just need to be sure that the exact message is understood clearly - Stonewall's definitions and explanations are very useful.

So, encourage these stories, share them, get people talking about them.

Plenty news stories on this, Fallon Fox, Laurel Hubbard, Rachel McKinnon etc. Let's celebrate transwomen's inclusion in female sport! Maybe we should have a day celebrating it? How about that? I'm sure there's a gap in the rainbow calender to really push the message out there that males are welcome in female sport.