Stonewall Lobby World Rugby

Just wondered if anyone here as contacted any of the rugby unions directly about this? I contacted the english rugby union last year and they simply said they follow World rugby’s policy. I haven’t contacted NZ rugby union.

So practically I feel that anyone concerned should counter the stonewall campaigning by contacting the union in their country. Please please do this!! Otherwise they can use the excuse that in their country this is what people wanted etc which is what the NZ rugby union looks to be doing.

Unions I think should be contacted:

NZ
England- RFU
South Africa
France
Samoa- they currently do not allow Fa’Afafine to play in women’s sports and don’t support it but after the Pacific games they said they’d consider doing it as everyone else is
Australia
Ireland
Argentina
Wales
Scotland
Japan
Italy
USA- while not a major player yet, lots of investment & money going on and most of the women’s 7’s have signed the letter to world rugby saying not to reverse this

Indeed Edge!

The Kent women’s cricket captain was extremely vocal in her support for Kent TW player Maxine Blythe

www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2019/11/06/englands-tammy-beaumont-defends-transgender-kent-teammate-online/

I’m sure Kent women winning the league was a complete coincidence

Tammy has no problems throwing women under the bus because she & her team were winning

However, if you maintain your place on the team, if you are of the 'be kind' school of thought, if there is only one transwoman that you know of playing in your local area, and if your side happens to benefit from the transwoman's inclusion, chances are you will take a TWAW stance.

The issues become clear further down the line. When more injuries happen. When more and more women lose their places on teams. When having a transwoman on the team is not a rare occurrence showing how delightfully progressive and inclusive your team is, but standard practice. When the game changes. When coaches proactively seek out transwomen to recruit to the side. That's when attitudes might begin to shift.

Many women would probably be quite happy with a transwoman on the team. Nope!

Most of them see the advantage and think it is cheating
Most of them see the woman they have trained with for years, since early teens, sat on the bench
Most of them see the man, don't want to shower with him
Most of them see the man don't want to train with him as they too will be physically hurt.

As do most of the males in rugby!

The issue was realised when a number of women, who are also academics, coaches, referees and NGB members stood up and voiced their concerns, along with male counterparts in all levels of rugby.

Remember Stonewall didn't take on the RFU. The RFU has made decisions, canvassed players, taken a watching stance for a short while, gathered its evidence and made a statement based on measurable harm. The RFU acted , it didn't react to TRA/ Stonewall pressure!

Most of that was presented here!

www.world.rugby/news/563437?lang=en

I just wanted to say (as I don't have anything useful to add to this which hasn't already been said) that I really value the input by women on this thread who play or have played rugby or other sports. I think your insight into this is invaluable and I'll be using examples here when speaking with people about this. Thanks fabulous women of FWS.

It’s worth remembering that Hannah Mouncey’s teammates decided collectively that they no longer felt comfortable showering with Hannah. These are Hannah’s own words. Hannah thinks this flags those teammates as exclusionary bigots, whereas everyone else thinks those women probably have a very good reason for not wanting to shower with Hannah :

www.starobserver.com.au/opinion/people-will-do-whats-easy-over-whats-right-hannah-mouncey-speaks-out/190555

Many women would probably be quite happy with a transwoman on the team.

Yes - particularly the woman booted off the team to make way for males NOT.

Well I’m not sure, teammates can get injured by the trans woman too, and already have, as they train with each other and against each other within the whole squad. So it’s still very dangerous, perhaps more so as they spend more time training together than playing a single match. This affects everyone from those missing out on a place, those in the team, the coaches and medical staff, the insurers and sponsors... The viewers! everyone.

Last year would rugby erased ‘women’ from the World Cup marketing and all that because they claimed it would mean more support if the language was gender neutral. So we just had the rugby World Cup last year, and we’re also having the rugby World Cup next year in NZ. But they can’t say which is which and obviously you can’t tell males from females just by looking So it’s a gender neutral non binary rugby World Cup every other year folks!

Quite - "women who who are on a team with transwomen don't feel disadvantaged" is up there with the other recent studies "people still going to gender clinics haven't detransitioned" and "Asian-Americans who got into Harvard don't think they were discriminated against".

All of those blatantly avoid getting responses from the people directly negatively affected. People who didn't make it on to the team, people on the opposing team, the people who've stopped gender treatment, and the people who failed to get the inflated-because-of-your-race grade requirement.

Many women would probably be quite happy with a transwoman on the team. That person would be their not-so-secret weapon on the pitch. If there is only one TW, most female players wouldn't be affected as they would get their place on the team anyway.

The issue would only be realised when 3 or 4 trans women joined the team, all naturally stronger and faster on average than the natal females.

Until that point, I imagine it's pretty easy to adopt a 'transwomen are women' mindset when you're on the side that benefits.

Regardless of 'their level of commitment to their new identity', their body hasn't been significantly changed by the addition of a feminising suffix to their name.
It's unjust for this girl to be excluded from girls' sports.

Notbad - absolutely! I have just found out that a teen family member has been pushed out of a county level sports competition by someone who has added a feminising suffix to their name. There is no real way of knowing their level of commitment to their new identity but while they work that out there is a girl losing her place in the competition.

Most of this thread has been focused on the potential for injury and how women won’t want to play against a trans woman. But one thing that hasn’t been mentioned is the fact that if a trans woman is consistently playing for a team then a woman is on the bench or being left out of the team. Why would that woman keep going, knowing there is a male always ahead of them? And that applies to all sports, not just contact sports. How can the women who are all for this sort of policy be happy with the exclusion of a female team mate at the hands of a male?

And I see this "excluding transwomen hurts all women" thing a lot. I'd love them to explain further, but they never do.

Yeah, I can't see how excluding males from the few things to which the EA exemptions rightly apply (ie those where sex matters) hurts women in the slightest.

This is what happens when you have to pretend TWAactualW. It means accepting every single TW is a woman in every single circumstance or else bigot so SW have no choice but to go along with it

I don't think SW had a choice, did they?

They'd have loved to have started small, drawing as little attention as possible. Then by the time they got around to Rugby, they could have said 'but look at the TW being included in all other women's sports with "no problems", you bigots, blah blah.'

I was under the impression that the review caught them off guard/threw a spanner in the works and now they have no choice but to publicly fight against it, else they'll lose face. They'd rather look sadistic (ignoring the danger to women) than have to admit that trans women are not the same as women.

I think this was completely out of their hands.

To all the players, coaches and manager's for women's rugby that are on this thread, if you have an injured player due to a male playing in the team, how does this get reported? Or in the case of a male player targeting another player to 'take them out'?

I am quite concerned that a) either there are no stats collected, separately hence no awareness or b) those stats have been collected and not been released (likely due to privacy issues or because it wouldn't show significant injuries - and that maybe due to the small number of players). or c) because the statistics are not collected with names of injured and the person responsible/ or who is a transwoman (because registration might not separate birth sex and 'gender identity', these are not useful anyway.

I think I have probably answered my own question but I thought to ask it anyway.

serenity - I think that rugby was def not of TRA choosing, it was because rugby has been the first sport to step up in this. I’m sure stonewall would have preferred something completely no contact like cycling or cricket to make their “dont be meeeean” stand on

I too find it bizarre youd try and do this with Rugby before any other sport, it is quite simply dangerous and irresponsible to do so. In terms of the mens and women's game, it is rather like comparing apples and oranges. If you look at rugby in the 70s, the severely amateur nature of it shines through, the whole team would sort of cluster around and the follow the ball around the pitch, now due to increased fitness, training etc,the whole tactical options available have completely changed, so I think it would be a stretch to say mens or womens requires more 'skill' than the other. The two are different games, and as such this is yet another reason why an individual who had gone through male puberty shouldn't be playing in the womens game.

But Kit19 surely it would make sense to put a toe in the water with a less obvious team sport?

I am also even more concerned about the impact on Polynesian women in rugby, as Polynesian players in general are already poorly treated, more so in the mens, but they're not seen much as refs, coaches, or in management. Perhaps that's why Dan Leo is so behind this too, he is the most outspoken man in rugby and founded the Pacific Players League that looks after Polynesian players in Europe and campaigns for better inclusion. If any group isn't included fairly, its Polynesians. Used and abused in rugby since it began. Often rugby is a real opportunity for players from the smaller islands to get work and send money home etc and as women in NZ are now being paid, my concern is this will impact Polynesian players the most. Like it did when Laurel Hubbard won the gold in weightlifting, taking it from a 19 year old Samoan woman who somehow managed to get funds to pursue her sport after a childhood full of abuse. Women have gone to great lengths to be part of rugby, aside from washing the kit and cooking the kai ( food ), we cannot let men take it from them.

SophocIestheFox yes you are so right, womens rugby is inclusive already and far more than the mens. There are lesbian women throughout, and in the black ferns the two wings are partners with a child. Meanwhile there has never been an out male player in NZ, or anywhere as far as I know- one came out after he finished. There are straight male players going on about how someone needs to come out or they 'need' a gay player- honestly I find that strange- but nobody says anything about how accepting and welcoming women are in rugby to other women. Maybe that's why a few women players are pro trans women being included in women's rugby? one NZ player said it was a bit 'Terfy' for world rugby to disallow them. Seriously? based on very solid evidence it is a serious risk?? so strange.

hockey also has mixed hockey so Im sure would quickly disappear down a rabbit hole of "yehbut men and women already play against each other so whats the difference?"

For women of all sizes, shapes and body types- rugby includes us all That has always been my (non playing) view of it! I've seen the most skilled, junior elite players use league matches to teach the roundest, unfittest, most unskilled team some great plays, never laughing at them, making them feel uncomfortable or silly! They just share what they have and encourage others to join in.

It has the capacity to encompasse everyone. It has a history of using that capacity! This Trans shite has the capacity to change the nature of the game, socially and I truly hate that!