Caitlin Moran's new book - feminism is for women and men.

Yes the men’s lives haven’t changed for 120 years is utter shite and an example of Moran’s tendency to just say whatever soundbite pops into her head without stopping to see if it makes sense. Not gay men for a start. Not men who, through challenges to sexism, have been able to expand what they are able to do with society’s approval - be a sahd, nurse, midwife or Nanny. Before the advent of transgender woo, we were on a path to greater freedom of expression for men through what they could wear, in the same way women have gained the choice to wear what they like/traditionally men’s clothes. Men have become much more involved in childcare and housework, on average, over that 120 years and that’s important for both men and women.

IME the kind of men who go for or threaten to go for full custody do so to punish their ex partners not for the benefit of their kids, except for in circumstances where the mother is obviously unable to be the primary carer, eg. Due to drug addiction or severe mental health problems. 50:50 or near enough 50:50 is much more commonplace than it used to be, though

But feminism will make things better for everyone. Patriarchal culture is also dreadful for men and makes many people very ill. Toxic masculinity affects everyone.

I thought there were some statistics that showed that when men applied for ‘custody’ of their children in the courts they were in fact more likely to ‘win’ than women and infact the reason most children primarily live with their mothers is that men don’t want ‘custody’ and rarely dispute primary residence.
It may have been US based research though so don’t know if it applies in the U.K.

I think there is an argument for countering the sexism that affects men. Boys being brought up in a sexist way is one of the biggest problems for women, and it also leads to problems for many men.

But banging on about the poor men isn’t helpful in a book supposedly about women. She could write a book about men, or about sex equality, to cover that.

Regarding men helping children, it’s tragic that some men are reluctant to do this, but I still know many men who would help. If a child is lost/in danger and your first thought is being accused of being a paedophile, and that stops you from acting, then you are not a responsible adult IMO. Any good man should help the child and worry about any such accusations later. It should be pretty straightforward to determine if that’s baseless.

Turning feminism into an "all lives matter" campaign will render it completely meaningless. It serves no one

Could not agree more!

We can be compassionate towards men’s problems, be supportive and be allies but if we accept it as feminism then before long feminism will be about men’s issues and women’s issues will be on the back burner again

I completely agree. Of course I worry about suicide rates among young men. Two young guys I know have committed suicide since the start of lockdown, it's awful. But it makes no sense to call this "feminism". Turning feminism into an "all lives matter" campaign will render it completely meaningless. It serves no one.

This "it's been the same for men for 120 years business" is just jaw-dropping. The destruction of mining and manufacturing in the UK, and reliance on "just in time" goods and the introduction of tech have completely changed men's working lives. Not to mention the wars which this time period covers!

Does no one learn history any more?

"But life for men, in the past 120 years, has remained almost exactly the same – save for the fact that men now don’t, generally, wear top hats*"
*
Not sure that's quite right. For starters,** if you believe the TRAs, many of them seem to have acquired cervixes....

But we can live and work with men to improve society without calling it feminism, can’t we? Like we can support food banks and animal shelters and refugee aid and lifeboats without making them all part of the same movement.

We can be compassionate towards men’s problems, be supportive and be allies but if we accept it as feminism then before long feminism will be about men’s issues and women’s issues will be on the back burner again.

But life for men, in the past 120 years, has remained almost exactly the same – save for the fact that men now don’t, generally, wear top hats

I assume what Caitlin is trying to say is that life for rich, straight, white, gender conforming, able bodied men has remained almost exactly the same for 120 years. And even that isn't true.

She is talking as if women getting custody is just 'the done thing', when in reality IF it happens, it is because the father has shown violence or aggression OR and probably most likely, the mother has been the primary care giver up to that point.

This is it. Status Quo for kids (and TBF, the starting point of 50/50 is already a big change for a lot of families). Not that 'custody' is really a thing anyway.

If men want to have 'custody' of their kids after divorce, they need to act like they have 'custody' of their kids while married. This is entirely on men. They have responsibility for how they behaved as a parent in a marriage.

Feminism is a movement for women’s liberation.
But unless we get men and boys involved, things won’t change. They are part of our lives. If we can reduce toxic masculinity in our society then there will be positive benefits for all.
Look at prostitution. It’s been going on forever. A minority of men use prostitutes because they don’t value women as people and see us as objects. If we can create a change in attitude, bring up our boys differently so that they are taught it’s fine to cry, that they can like pink, that they can be gentle, that consent and tenderness are important when they express their sexuality and that girls have just as much value as they do and deserve the same level of respect as they do, then these boys will grow up without that damaging toxic masculinity. Then they won’t use prostitutes.
This is the same toxic masculinity that causes the higher suicide rate in men. They don’t talk about their problems and they don’t seek help.
This change in attitude needs to involve men too, because boys look up to male role models.
I might read Moran’s book before I judge it based on a couple of paragraphs. I imagine it covers some of these things, much as Robert Webb did in his excellent autobiography.
I won’t centre men in my feminism but, unless we’re going to move to a lesbian paradise island with a readymade sperm bank and abort all male foetuses, we need to live with them and work with them to improve society.

In some ways I can kind of see where she's coming from. We do equal child care in my house, but are finding whereas workplaces expect women to work part time and ask for time off for a nativity, the expectation on my husband is not the same. He comes under fire for wanting to be an active part of his children's lives.

Dig deeper, however, and it's effectively his work place discriminating against me- because expectation that I should be responsible for these things and so it comes down to a feminist issue.

In examples like this, feminism has a huge benefits for both of us if we can be seen as more equal in the workplace and family.

Fuck posted too soon... I have conversations with my son about feminism almost as often as I do with my daughter. And I worry about his mental health and the pressures of life and the toxic masculinity out there in the world. That’s part of my feminism. Maybe that’s what she’s angling at? And she can’t resist a word like ‘cummerbund’ - let’s not deny her that

Feminism, when done properly benefits the whole of humankind but it doesn’t do that by centring men. Any man worth his salt if asked if he’s a feminist should reply ‘no’ but I’m a supporter. A fan, not a player. We need the support of decent men who agree that sexist shit goes on, that they may have indulged in it but will face up to it and not perpetuate inequality.

I have a daughter and a son and We don’t win our battles by denying the battles others face. But our battle has different

I thought CM was somebody who didn't know what a woman was anymore. I was expecting that paragraph to read quite differently!

An important part of the gender identity ideology, particularly where it intersects with MRA ideas, is that everyone knows what a man is but no one knows what a woman is:

twitter.com/dinahbrand2/status/1285179614755684352

Maybe if men don't want to be seen as predators, they could do something about their sex's rates of violence and aggression, rather than moaning to a writer about it in the hopes she will print it and thereby gain sympathy for the poor little men.

This annoyed me too. The extract I read said something about how sad it was that her male friends in the park couldn’t help a distressed small child because people might think they were abusers. Well I do think it is sad that society has to recognise that women are the safer sex for helping small children but I always thought that decent men removed themselves from these situations due to respect for the comfort of children and women, just as they keep out of female only spaces. Not that it was a failure of society to be kind to men.

I’d like to see a few more top hats on dudes.

Surely they're everywhere, if life has barely changed for men? We must be looking for them wrong.

She is talking as if women getting custody is just 'the done thing', when in reality IF it happens, it is because the father has shown violence or aggression OR and probably most likely, the mother has been the primary care giver up to that point....would it be fair on the children to change that when the man has been happy to take the back seat so far? It is not a favour to women or a punishment for fathers...it is simply what is best for the children.

Ok. She can have fem-men-ism and there can be feminism for those who wish to focus on women and girls.

I don’t have an issue accepting that men often have a bad time in society and I’d support a campaign to help anyone who may be suicidal but I think blanket statements about custody ignore real and sensible reasons for women getting custody rather than men and that is simply an issue that men need to work on more. I don’t know how women are supposed to stop men feeling like they can help a child without being judged as a predator- this is definitely one for the guys to sort out.

And I’d like to see a few more top hats on dudes. My feminism can include that.