Caitlin Moran's new book - feminism is for women and men.

Moran did an expert bit of fence-sitting prevarication on the trans debate in the Evening Standard the other week:

www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/caitlin-moran-how-to-build-a-girl-covid-a4505511.html

Thank you SomeDyke, that was really thought-provoking. And I'm afraid you're right. There's not many who are willing to sacrifice their own privilege for the good of others, even if they're decent people otherwise.

I don't want to tear CM to bits gratuitously and I mean to be reasoned and not sneery, but I do feel that what comes across with her is a sense of fear and lack of confidence, that makes it hard for her to say anything actually strongly, seriously feminist and stand by it, in case it frightens the horses or makes her seem less nice and fun. And I do think that's fairly common, it's not just her - it's just unfortunate (for radical feminists) that she's in a niche where she's seen as representing feminism.

I remember her saying she wouldn't go on panel-type comedy TV and radio shows because they're male-dominated and aggressive towards women. Now if she doesn't want to because she thinks she's not cut out for it or would hate it, that's fine and that's what she should say. But I didn't like the way it basically came across as "us poor little women aren't tough enough." And it's clearly bollocks - plenty of other female comedians go there and stand their ground brilliantly, and also often host the shows.

I would like to see her find her ovaries of steel and really use her platform for women. I do however defend her right to do what she likes - I just wish she wasn't seen as the voice of feminism.

She could write a book about men, or about sex equality, to cover that.

Yes. I actually thought this is what she was going to do and I don't think there would have been anything wrong with that @JoysOfString. Like other women here have said, the problem is is that she's kind of doing an equivalent of 'All Lives Matter' and women here. Most people can see what's wrong with that when it comes to race. You can be accused of being all sorts of nasty things if you say that online...... but when it comes to doing the same thing to women's issues......then it's fucking fine is it?

As a long term political stretegy, then I can see the value to it, but if someone really believes it's ok to pull that on women, then it says it all about our place in society, doesn't it?

I’m just so bloody disappointed she hasn’t matured as a feminist and got a bit more steel about her
This was my immediate thought. Her brand of feminism isn’t that of the usual 45 year old feminist, surely? Comes across like she never grew up.

So true...it kind of begs the question - if it's so fantastic for men, why haven't men being doing that for the last 2 thousand years? Why haven't women been living in respected bliss the whole time?

An open letter to Caitlin Moran -

If you're reading this Caitlin (because I know you're on Mumsnet), then sorry, but I simply can't take you seriously anymore. I'm not sure if you ever really wanted to be taken that seriously, because you've always been about putting a comedy spin on things, but really, now I've lost respect for you.

I understand why you have remained silent over the trans issue (because you were probably concerned about the safety of your children as well as the media reaction), but the fact that you have remained so silent about the biggest regression in women's rights in decades will not help your career in the long run. We'll remember that silence.

You love the title 'strident feminist', you think it's sexy (pretty sure those are the words from your own book actually and I could probably find the quote if I had it to hand). You've written books about feminism and being a woman (that centred an awful lot on biology, tsk tsk, such heresy) and you even write for a newspaper that would have, quite likely, supported you in airing GC concerns....but you've been silent.

I love your energy, enthusiasm and humour. I think you you're good at fun feminism, but I think it's so sad, and quite telling that the only way women can get men to care more about us is by telling them that feminism benefits them as well. See guys!! We're not a bunch of bitches! We're fun! And feminism can benefit YOU too! I've listened to interviews with you and I know why you wanted to write a book about boys & men. They seemed to be noble reasons (which I'm sure you'll be pleased to hear), but as soon as you focused on that rather than THE EMERGENCY SITUATION THAT WE'RE IN......well, I switched you off.

Turning feminism into an "all lives matter" campaign will render it completely meaningless. It serves no one

Except it does, it serves men. Lets stop pretending that feminism will benefit men as well, it won't because it requires men as a class to give up places and power and the vast amount of physical and emotional work done by women. They will have to surrender places at universities, on company boards, seats in parliament and so on, and take up the slack and start cleaning the loo and organising birthday cards as well.

It's a total con if you keep pretending that feminism will be good for men as well, because then you can no longer see the fact that the current situation has preserved itself precisely because it benefits men at the expense of women.

It's like replacing racism with instead saying 'of course I'm in favour of equal rights for all'. Unless you can discuss the explicit ways that racism benefited white people, then it becomes meaningless. It's replacing BLM with all lives matter. Yet again, the sleight of hand isn't as acceptable when white folks do it, yet lapped up by the credulous when men do it.

Feminism requires men to lose some things, to take up more work. To deal with the facts of what men have done to women for thousands of years, to deal with the vast amounts of male violence committed against women and children...... and saying men are violent to other men too really does not do that.

If men really didn't want patriarchy, they could have gotten rid of it themselves, without waiting until women managed to stop being chattels, get the rights to work and own property, and vote, and own their own bodies (rape in marriage legal until 1989-1991 in the UK).......and then after doing all that we were supposed to point out to men how bad patriarchy was and kindly suggest it would be better for all concerned if we could get rid of that as well. Really? Men were too stupid to see it themselves? Why are women yet again supposed to do all the work??

Can you really not see it? But then again, the con has kept working for centuries.............

Regarding men helping children, it’s tragic that some men are reluctant to do this, but I still know many men who would help. If a child is lost/in danger and your first thought is being accused of being a paedophile, and that stops you from acting, then you are not a responsible adult IMO. Any good man should help the child and worry about any such accusations later. It should be pretty straightforward to determine if that’s baseless.

This^

And what bad timing to be hand wringing about something like that, given recent events in CM's circles.
Has she said anything about Eric Joyce?

D'oh! How did I miss that!

Stop shouting Caitlyn!

Small point but why 120 years?

The world was created in the year 1900?

I assume it's just a nice round number 2020-120=1900.

Oh, Caitlin.

I remember reading How To Be A Woman when it first came out and loving it. We were both young, me & Cait, and I found her voice really refreshing and her account of young womanhood so relatable,

But we aren’t you g any more, Caitlin. I’m just so bloody disappointed she hasn’t matured as a feminist and got a bit more steel about her. Feminism should and in fact MUST centre women. Her intentions may well be good, but taking this direction is sorely misjudged. At this stage of her life and career, to be falling back on the ‘let’s include the men, we can’t do this without them’ trope...it’s just so disheartening.

I love my husband. I’ve got a son. Not all men are bastards etc etc. But I’ll be dammed if my feminism is going to centre around ‘being kind‘ and opening up the conversation to make men feel more included. Enough of that nonsense.

When was male franchise increased massively?

Small point but why 120 years?

Anyone any idea?

I think there is an argument for countering the sexism that affects men. Boys being brought up in a sexist way is one of the biggest problems for women, and it also leads to problems for many men.

Couldn't agree more.

I also read those paragraphs with a raised eyebrow yesterday but am interested to see how this plays out. If it's in the context of the above comment from a PP, I'd be interested. But if it's all "What about the men" then I will be disappointed as for all her relatively lite feminism, CM has never been one of those in my opinion.

But this narrative of "men are being penalised" thing is really insidious. DS is 9. Independent and capable but while in London last week, I was uncomfortable with him going into the huge public toilet at a major train station. I explained to him that it wasn't that I didn't trust him but that there are men who come to places like this who don't have good intentions and might want to watch him, touch him, or expose themselves to him. He said, "Why do you always think the men are the baddies. Why is it fine for women but not men?". Luckily, that was relatively easily explained by me saying it is really sad and it's something the whole world needs to work on but we know for a fact that it just happens more often with men than women and there are lots of reasons for that we need to address but right now, for him, it means I don't want him alone in a very public, very large male bathroom. But at 9, I'm having to watch out because otherwise it will be so easy for hi to slip into this idea that men are being discriminated against.

No fond of her writing. She doesn't seem to know where she stands, all a bit flim flam for me.

Superficial as a rule, but I only occasionally read her articles in the Times, don't like her enough to read regularly or anything longer. Can always find lots to criticise

Does no one learn history any more?

This is the problem. I quite enjoyed the first book she wrote (can't remember what it was called) but it was pretty clueless about history. There's a bit where she said women achieved almost nothing for virtually all of human history, which simply isn't true. She needs to do some research. It isn't hard.

But feminism will make things better for everyone. Patriarchal culture is also dreadful for men and makes many people very ill. Toxic masculinity affects everyone.

This. Feminism is for women and girls only, but a direct consequence will improve life circumstances for men and boys too.

This is not the same as saying feminism is for everyone. Many of those who laud their feminist credentials by including men are an embarrassment.

I know she started writing professionally at 16, but does she still have to write like one?

Whoa, DID she? I don’t think she’s ever mentioned that before

Turning feminism into an "all lives matter" campaign will render it completely meaningless. It serves no one

Exactly this. CM seems to be going for the classic derail of “what about men?” because she knows she’ll get stick for centring women.

Anyway, I’m not surprised. I read How To Be A Woman back when it first came out, and thought it was bollocks. I didn’t know about radical feminism then but, with hindsight, that was the kind of feminism I was looking for in that book. Not a semi-autobiographical, semi-fictional book full of hilarious anecdotes about CM and her sister.