Caitlin Moran's new book - feminism is for women and men.

This insistence that women and girls with big breasts could go about their lives with no bra on and no one would bat an eyelid is rubbish.

As someone with large breasts who did, for many years, go about without a bra -- because bras at the time that I could afford for large breasts were agony. Because going without was liberating as well as more comfortable. Because jokes about bra burning and bras aren't jokes.

Yes, I got hassle if not direct harassment from men, but then as an out lesbian as well, that was to be expected at the time, and still was until fairly recently. Maybe it's just getting older and perhaps slightly more invisible? Haven't been called a fucking dyke for ages..........

Not all of us think bras, heels, make-up, obsessing about your appearance or thinking about botox are normal. The female appearance industry and constraints are still there, just perhaps the restraints aren't as obvious as they were in the old whale bone corset.

It seems like an extension of her distancing herself from things that are problematic. Women are judged, more than men, on their appearance. Specifically, their attractiveness. She attempts to bypass that by pulling ridiculous faces, as if to say 'See - I'm not trying!! I don't care!!' when the truth is probably that she cares a lot.

I have huge sympathy with that, but given that she styles herself 'a strident feminist' that she should confront the problem rather than sidestep it. There's a hint of 'do it to Julia'. Angela Merkel doesn't get the option of posing for photos with her mouth wide open in cartoon craziness.

In today's piece she also describes her ageing appearance as 'sad woman surveying her war-ravaged village face' which seemed like a really crass 'joke' for a London media luvvie to use to justify getting botox. Does she watch the news?

having a mother who is visibly concerned with looks

I think that's a bit much. Everyone is concerned with their looks to some degree. In fact not giving a shit at all is seen as a sign of mental health problems

I agree. There are posters on here who seem to equate any concern about how one looks as some sort of moral failure.

That comment also contradicts the equally hyperbolic comment that "the not eating is pretty much a rite of passage for year 8 girls" (whatever a "year 8 girl is, because strange as it might seem to some posters not everyone was , or has children, in the English school system)

I think the silly faces thing is part of the self-deprecation. I think she's said something about doing it so she can't be judged for her face or something and tried to make it sound like a feminist act, but I think it's just a defensive act. Not blaming her for lacking confidence, but I don't see Greer, Bindel, Criado Perez or any other famous feminist of any kind, doing that.

From what I’ve read there’s a lot of self-depreciation, angst about looks etc in her writing... I can’t stand that, as if I should somehow be worried about ageing etc. So much peer pressure from other women.

My issue with CM is that she's part of that wealthy north-London media/celebrity bubble, and as such, is completely out of touch with ordinary people's lives (in spite of waving her pre-internet Wolverhampton youth as a badge of honour.) Having those voices constantly amplified just skews the argument and makes it harder for the real problems to be addressed.

(And the silly comedy 'whacky' faces she pulls. I have an issue with that as well, but admit that's not strictly relevant.)

Well, ok.
I was thinking of a few people that I know, but you’re right, plural of anecdote isn’t data. Can’t be easy having a famous mum either.

The problem is Moran writes books with titles like How To Be A Woman. She is setting herself up very explicitly as an authority on what women should do and as a feminist, and has a lot of followers. That's why it would be better if she at least informed herself about the statistics and realities for women as a class, and thought through the implications of things like residency rulings and trans ideology.

As a lifestyle journalist writing only about what affects her and her own opinions, she can say what she likes - I just think the packaging is mislabelled IYSWIM.

I remember reading How to be a Woman (which a friend gave me) there was something along the lines of, if think your wedding is the best experience of your life, you haven't taken enough drugs in a field at 3am. I thought that crossed a line - it's the kind of witty, silly thing someone might say to their mates to make them laugh, and maybe it's OK in a funny personal column - but I don't think it's OK in a book that is overtly telling lots of your, often very young, women readers how to live their lives. For some women - and men - their wedding is their best day ever but aside from the fact that she's sneering at them, she's advocating something that is a seriously shit and dangerous idea, besides being illegal, for laughs.

It's the clash between "my personal stories and jokes, hey I'm mad me, aren't I funny" and "CM, feminist role model for women" that makes me uncomfortable.

Justhadathought said Julie Bindel is a professional feminist, which is true, but she is also someone who knows her stuff. It's fine to be a campaigning journalist, in my view. She co-founded the Centre for Women's Justice with her partner, and she talks to vulnerable women – prisoners, prostitutes, abused girls – about their experiences. If you want to know the reality of life for women today then read Bindel (or indeed a whole bunch of other less famous journalists), don't read Caitlin Moran

Yes, Julie Bindel does knows her stuff, but what she knows tends to be focused on very particular types of experiences. When you inhabit a certain kind of world you tend to see that world reflected everywhere. That's not to criticise Julie Bindel, though, she's a legend.

As for Caitlyn Moran, she is a writer of editorial journalism, designed to entertain; a different proposition altogether. It doesn't take away from her own experiences and conclusions, though. The difference between her and any one of us, is that her musings on life get printed in national newspapers, and now in a book.

having a mother who is visibly concerned with looks

I think that's a bit much. Everyone is concerned with their looks to some degree. In fact not giving a shit at all is seen as a sign of mental health problems. It's OK to put effort into looking how you want to, expressing yourself through clothes etc - but I think it's important that that is presented as a choice for everyone, rather than a thing women have to do.

I am not on board with Botox and I see that as a depressing development, but liking clothes and make-up is fine by me, as long as it's fine for everyone.

If Caitlin Moran is the kind of woman who is thinking about having Botox and worrying about her clothes suiting her in middle aged then I fear her daughter will have absorbed some of this stereotypically “feminine” looks based anxiety growing up, which won’t have helped with an eating disorder. Not blaming her, but in my experience having a mother who is visibly concerned with looks can negatively impact the daughter.

The one yesterday was about how your clothes no longer suit you in middle age. It had no interest for me at all, apart from being amusingly written

You're easily pleased then if you found it amusing.

Apart from getting halfway through The Female Eunuch I've never read a feminist tract and don't intend to. I don't care what sort of feminist Moran is or what theory she's peddling.

She is a terrible writer. She is incapable of writing anything which isn't "me,me, me". The article about clothes was drivel. It was not in the least bit amusing. The overuse of swearing and "poo" was pathetic. She's a 45 year old woman- not a 14 year old boy.

namechangetoavoidmra's post is brilliant - I missed it earlier. If you're really interested in writing about feminism, and men's rights, and women's rights, then this information is out there. You just need to do the research - read the reports, interview the right people. CM's line about fathers not getting custody was obviously just written of the top of her head without any investigation at all.

Justhadathought said Julie Bindel is a professional feminist, which is true, but she is also someone who knows her stuff. It's fine to be a campaigning journalist, in my view. She co-founded the Centre for Women's Justice with her partner, and she talks to vulnerable women – prisoners, prostitutes, abused girls – about their experiences. If you want to know the reality of life for women today then read Bindel (or indeed a whole bunch of other less famous journalists), don't read Caitlin Moran.

I have now read four excerpts from Moran's book. The one yesterday was about how your clothes no longer suit you in middle age. It had no interest for me at all, apart from being amusingly written. Today she wrote about having Botox. Ditto. She is writing about her own experiences (and those of the women in her small social circle) as if they're universal. They're not.

I'm just so disappointed by Caitlin. When she left her difficult upbringing she made a point of not forgetting the issues involved. This made her more popular and it wasn't a risky approach. But now that she has a lot to lose she hasn't the guts to confront any other issues

I’m glad it helped you cats. I found it very moving and she captured her powerlessness despite being an intelligent, well-resourced, loving mother and doing everything in her power to bring her daughter back to safety.

I am thankful that she wrote about her daughter’s “agonies”, as you call it.
As a parent in the same position - I almost feel as if she’s written out the last three years of our lives -, tonight I am more than relieved to know that we’re not alone, that we are essentially more fortunate in that the health system where we live means my child has access to and is getting all the care that CM’s daughter did not get when she needed it.
Mental health stigma means that people are still too afraid to freely discuss their problems. She may be pussyfooting around the trans problem but at least she’s tackling another problem head on: the mental health issues of a whole generation of young girls and the lack of care and support for them (a waiting list of one year for CBT in CM’s case) and their parents who are blindsided by this.

What we need is to liberate both women and men from toxic masculinity. On that I agree with her.

How we do that without the cooperation of males and the parents of future males I am not sure.

It is definite a conundrum.

Love that analogy Antibles! :o

Well yes but if you haven't learned about feminism in the past, the arguments, the insights that people have, the research that's been done, the reasons why for example, people are gender-critical - then you are likely to just miss obvious stuff.

Thank you Joysofstring your post is exactly what I meant. It's like me telling someone, hey whenever an apple detaches from a tree it always goes towards the ground. I don't know why that is but aren't I clever for spotting it, I might write a book about it.

I agree that she doesn't have to adhere to any particular creed. I always read Julie Bindel and I am very interested in her views but I'm not convinced that she's right all the time.

The issue with CM is that she gets it. She wrote about the difficulty for her daughter in approaching womanhood. It' seems obvious to me that these eating disorders are closely related to the challenge of puberty and womanhood and the public ownership of women's bodies. It's an attempt to control the uncontrollable onset of adulthood. CM has written about these topics so many times and she writes about them very well I think. This is so very close to the gender dysphoria affecting our girls that I think the explosion in referrals to the Tavistock is best treated as an epidemic of self harm.

CM can join these dots surely. She knows. But she has said not one word. She will, however, write about her daughter's agonies. I'm not sure I know how to make that ok.

The men I know who have always chosen to take an active part in family life tend to not be divorced so they don't count towards the poor menz with no custody.

The men who don't lift a finger and who do fuck all with the children tend to be divorced. The "no custody" thing for those dads isn't because of discrimination against them even though they like to claim it. When they have the kids for the weekend they come back early, have no laundry done, never have a dentist appointment on dad's time etc. That lack of will to parent is why they are divorced in the first place.

Well yes but if you haven't learned about feminism in the past, the arguments, the insights that people have, the research that's been done, the reasons why for example, people are gender-critical - then you are likely to just miss obvious stuff. Like her talking about men not getting residency as much. There are huge structural and societal reasons for that and furthermore it's actually women who suffer more from the system as it as has been so clearly explained below - by people who do know what they're talking about. Instead CM just took at face value the complaints of moaning men.

How things seem to her will only reflect her own experience which is of a well-off, apparently happily married woman who hasn't even been divorced or experienced what happens when an abusive man pushes for access to the kids.

She doesn't have to read every feminist tract ever written and treat it as a "dogma" - but she could check out the research and other viewpoints and angles before declaring something as truth just because it sounds about right.

Same with the trans issue - of course "be kind" and "poor trans people who are stuck in the wrong body, we should help them" might sound convincing if you don't stop to think or look into the issue properly.

Compare her to Julie Bindel, say, who's spent much of her journalistic career talking to prostituted women or trafficked women - who do you think is better informed

Julie Bindel is a professional feminist, in the way that Jeremy Corbyn is a professional socialist. someone who adheres to a certain way of viewing the world and all relations in it.

Personally think Caitlyn should ditch the feminist tag, and just articulate the world in the way that she sees and experiences it. The way we view life changes with time and experience, and it is is not necessary to commit to any one particular philosophy or political ideology for the wole of one's life.

To me, she writes about feminism like she's just going on intuition rather than having actually read previous insightful feminist analysis and done some research. Like someone down the pub rather than a scholar

Isn't that how the world is for most people. It is not about dogma, so much as negotiated reality. All dogmas, even feminist ones, are constructs, not verbatim truths.

divorcing men tend not to get primary custody of their children; and I’ve lost count of the number of men who have said, if a child needed help in a playground, they would have to find a woman to offer aid

She missed one - very occasionally a woman doesn't thank a man for holding a door for her