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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

ROGD - how do you cope?

32 replies

contactusdeletus · 19/08/2020 00:30

Basically.

How do you cope when a teen family member goes full ROGD? It's happening to me right now and I'm honestly not sure how much more of this I can take.

Not my child, so what I can actually do to control the situation is limited. There is just so much I hate about this. The fear for him is top of the list, but it's also getting harder and harder to be around him. I just can't take the constant self-deception, the rewriting of his childhood to fit a trans narrative, and the constant, low-level emotional manipulation. I feel like I'm being guilt-tripped at every turn. Every conversation feels like an attempt to get me to pity him, then give the correct, affirmative, love-bomb response. I know I should rise above it, but I hate the way he's treating me. I hate the side of him this is bringing out, and I can't enjoy spending time with him anymore.

I know he's in the thick of it right now and I'm hoping this will pass. But it's a hard line to walk and I can feel it taking a toll on my mental health too. Would really appreciate any coping strategies

OP posts:
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DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 20/08/2020 19:09

I don’t have any experience of dealing with gender distressed boys, only girls.

Lots of open ended questions and trying to get him away from the computer as much as possible - he’s probably playing all his games with female avatars and possibly consuming lots of online porn (lots of it is animated so might not be particularly noticeable to a less than eagle eyed parent).

I would casually find a way to offer to put some parental controls on the gaming equipment/WiFi box. If his parent is affirming you can offer this without bringing up the trans topic it all - make it about keeping him away from pro suicide/self harm sites (which is genuinely important too).

quixote9 · 20/08/2020 09:26

Good grief. Reading his backstory, the immediate simplistic thought I jumped to was, "Sounds like he's desperate to get his mum to like him."

(Also, simplistic thought #2: his mum sounds a bit unhinged.)

What an awful, awful situation. Flowers and Cake for all your kindness in trying to provide a lifeline.

BlackWaveComing · 19/08/2020 21:46

Turn off you rnotifications at night would be my first step. You can communicate this to YP. 'Hey, just so you know if I don't message you back till morning, I've been sleeping really badly and so I need to switch my phone off at night for a couple of weeks till I get my sleep cycle back on track.'

You cannot live your life under the fear of suicide. Unrelated to ROGD, one of mine struggles with suicidality. I have had to comes to terms with this and still live my life. Of course, we make sure she has appropriate psych support.

Give YP crisis numbers/lines in case you are not available. Encourage him to use them. Say, I love you but I'm not trained to deal with suicidal feelings - these people are.

Is YP receiving mental health support?

You will make yourself sick if you live according to fear of self harm or a suicide attempt. Do not allow yourself to be an extra casualty of ROGD.

BlackWaveComing · 19/08/2020 21:37

I'm coming at this from a perspective of knowing the toll the obsession can take on those trying to keep the young person safe

Trust me, you are no good .to young person when broken and worn to bits by the dynamic.

It is ok to say 'I'll be back, but right now I need to step away from this conversation.'

YP is not getting an opportunity for real social feedback if all consequence to his browbeating of you is absent. You are a person too. You are not a blank screen for him to project his obsessions,needs and fears.

We are that for very small children as they rage and tantrum - for a short period of time. It's appropriate that we become more assertive of our own personhood as children grow.

Stepping away is not abandoning.

Neither you nor his parents can 'save him'. Especially you, when you don't have the limited power parents do. Even parents can only delay irreversible changes under their watch.

This will play itself out, or it won't. Either way, it sounds like your commitment is to the long haul - looking after yourself now does not destroy or risk losing all.

(I'd think about it from a feminist pov too - no woman should be expected to be the all patient facilitator of a male and yes, even an autistic ROGD male. Gentle assertions of personhood in face of this demand to - well, submit to his pov - provides YP a model of relationship he can hopefully learn from. All teens/YP need the opportunity to see assertion of the other in action, learn it isn't the end of the world, incorporate it into their own skill set, before they go out and make others in their lives miserable).

It's ok to look after yourself too. The cliche is your oxygen mask on first.

contactusdeletus · 19/08/2020 20:53

@ANewCreation Our experiences don't match 100%, but your advice is really helpful regardless. Especially what you say about self care, and what @BlackWaveComing said upthread. The stress is really getting to me and I haven't been putting my own oxygen mask on first. I feel as if I'm the only one who can see the risks in this, I feel like I can't reach him and I feel really emotionally drained too. His sleeping habits are appalling. I get woken up by text messages in the middle of the night listing off all the things he hates about his body or copy-and-pasting trans discourse from Twitter or Tumblr. I need to start saying no and leaving this stuff until the morning, but it's hard. This is how the whole movement emotionally manipulates you. The threat of suicide or self-harm is this constant unspoken element in every interaction. You feel terrified if you don't respond right away, and terrified of saying the wrong thing. It's horrendous. I can only imagine how much worse it must be for parents.

OP posts:
ANewCreation · 19/08/2020 16:21

As parents, we are more than aware of the bullying, the ASD, the AD(H)D, the other mental health issues that have already made life difficult for these kids. They have enough on their plate already.

Sorry, JanMeyer, I did not mean to offend.

By 'other mental health issues' I meant the depression, anxiety, ED frequently seen by the Tavistock Gender Identity Clinic as co-morbid with gender dysphoria.

Having said that, it's difficult to unpack the compound effect of negative life experiences/ neurodevelopmental conditions/ mental health issues on a newly expressed teen trans identity.

rogdmum · 19/08/2020 16:11

The full sentence by ANewCreation was:

“As parents, we are more than aware of the bullying, the ASD, the AD(H)D, the other mental health issues and life stresses that have already made life difficult for these kids.”

That is not implying ASD or ADHD are mental health issues. It is saying their child has mental health issues as well as ASD, AD(H)D, and has been bullied. I would write pretty much the identical sentence about my DD (minus the ADHD). It’s shorthand for the often complex backgrounds of these adolescents.

OP- while the parents are affirming there’s probably not that much you can do, but if he is actively bringing up the topic, I would listen and ask “why, why, why” to get him to think deeper and deeper. A lot of his statements and answers are probably very surface level. Arguing or disputing his point of view won’t help. Be neutral in your position and try to get him to articulate the hows and whys about his feelings.

JanMeyer · 19/08/2020 14:57

she is identifying as a girl

No, HE is identifying as a girl. If he really was a girl he wouldn't need to identify as one would he?
And it's easy to say that's their right, but it's a lot more complicated when the person is a vulnerable autistic young adult. And they don't have the right to expect the rest of the world to adhere to their demands.

But I'm hamstrung here too, because the attitude of his parents is very much that this self-absorption is "just the way he is" and "just the autism" and that basically there's nothing to be done and we just have to put up with it.

His parents are doing him no favours with that attitude, he needs to learn social skills to the best of his ability. There absolutely is something to be done, of course it's easier just to blame the autism and not tackle the behaviour in question.

I agree with the other posters that it sounds like it's become his obsession/special interest. How long has he been interested in this stuff? For some autistic people certain obsessions can be like going through a phase. You're nuts about something for say a year, and then you suddenly lose interest. Like you've learnt everything, collected everything- and you're just done with it.

About the video games and trying to expand his interests, there are some great books adapted from games (stuff like Mass Effect), would that interest him? I know it's still game related but at least it's doing something different. What games does he like?

As parents, we are more than aware of the bullying, the ASD, the AD(H)D, the other mental health issues

Autism and ADHD aren't mental health issues. Your phrasing at the end there implies they are.

ANewCreation · 19/08/2020 14:37

Sounds like you are in a particularly tough position, OP. Flowers

Wonder if this article, which had been on the Autism Hampshire site before, might be interesting, even though it is mainly about girls.

www.bayswatersupport.org.uk/gender-issues-for-autistic-girls

ANewCreation · 19/08/2020 14:11

My heart goes out to anyone also in this situation.

While I am not sure exactly how relevant my experience might be to your situation, for me, this stuff is the hardest parenting has been. It is emotionally exhausting and a marathon not a sprint, so I would advise anyone starting out to try to pace themselves.

'Put on your own oxygen mask first' before helping a child. Self care is sooo important because it takes very little until everything is revolving around the ROGD kid.
Instead, make the effort to actively build in things that bring you joy and that give you life.

Try to have a consistent approach with your partner.

Focus on any other kids, to make sure they are coping OK and are able to talk about how they feel. Their history is also being rewritten and they need to be able to call BS, where necessary. "No, you didn't 'always love' High School Musical. You chose to head off upstairs to play with your Bionicles when it was on and that was also fine."

It's not easy but, while being sympathetic to the dysphoria, aim to be the Upholder of Truth and the Bringer back to Reality.

Sound out a couple of people in real life to whom you can chat freely about the challenges.

If you find yourself spending a lot of time researching this topic, keep reminding yourself to make a distinction between the activists and your kid. Your kid is not Karen White. They are not Mermaids or Stonewall. Your kid's vulnerabilities have made this ideology seem appealing. They are still vulnerable.

Online ROGD support groups can help.

Consider 'muting' anyone who is over-excited about your son turning into your 'new daughter'. This is performative and about them, not you.

Avoid talking about gender to the ROGD kid as far as is humanly possible because any criticism of the general ideology is taken as a direct attack on their personal identity. This is very difficult when it has become their special interest.

Conversations with a male 'identifying as a woman' NEVER go well when you are on your period!

Instead, go all out to encourage critical thinking about things in general and call out any misogyny, homophobia, racism etc where you see it. Occasionally the cognitive dissonance will jar for them too.

It's not your fault.
A few years ago these kids might have been an emo or a goth or a hippy or a punk in order to express how 'not like the other kids' they were. They might have told you that they were gay. You would have been absolutely fine with that.

Now 'non conformity' (it is paradoxically super conformist to gender stereotypes) comes with the threat of a frightening dollop of hormones and serious surgery, with a side of authoritarian dogma. And yet somehow we are the creepy ones for being concerned about the loss of fertility, sexual pleasure and increased health risks...
We are officially in the upside-down.

If you had seen many (any?!) signs of gender non conformity in the years leading up to their trans declaration, then it would not look like ROGD.

This is what the more vocal trans activists don't understand: this is a NEW thing in these kids' lives.

Mine initially said he had started feeling dysphoric for "just a couple of months" during a period when we already knew he was going through social isolation, bullying and exam stress and spending a huge amount of time in his room online, (has ADD, highly likely ASD). Later on he realised that this was not the orthodox position and changed the narrative to one where he had 'always felt this way'.

As parents, we are more than aware of the bullying, the ASD, the AD(H)D, the other mental health issues and life stresses that have already made life difficult for these kids. They have enough on their plate already.

Transition therefore seems like a magic wand. All your problems will go away! Rewrite your past! Acceptance! Nothing you can do or say can be questioned because 'transphobia'!

The anguish for us comes because of the wholesale rejection of the old identity, which as typical loving parents we were part of co-creating, (modelling values, building happy memories etc.) In contrast, the brand new identity which denies the past and material reality, seems utterly inauthentic.

They may indeed no longer be a very nice person but they are a hurting person and somewhere in there still is the person you love.

contactusdeletus · 19/08/2020 14:01

@BlackWaveComing Not his Aunt but that's actually the nearest analogue I can find for our relationship. I did a lot of childcare when he was younger and since he moved away my role has been that of the fun aunt / emotional support. I've noticed he tests out behaviour a lot on me - if he's angry at his mum but doesn't dare rock the boat with her, he tends to take it out on me. If his Dad is being too lenient and he's craving a boundary, he'll often pick a fight with him or push a boundary with Dad in front of me. I often think he's hoping I'll step in and do something, but the trouble is his parents don't listen to me, and I risk losing what contact I have with him if I'm too critical of their parenting.

It's a delicate situation.

Re: setting boundaries - what do you do when the child just ignores your every attempt? Every time I say "I don't think we should talk about this" or just try to ignore the trans propaganda being sent to my phone, it lasts maybe an hour or a day and then he tries again. I'm not sure how to actually enforce this boundary without cutting off communication entirely. Which I don't really want to do, especially because I suspect he's pushing boundaries to see if I will give up on him. If that makes sense. But it's increasingly hard to deal with on an interpersonal level, and tbh I find the lack of willingness to respect someone else's boundary a bit concerning.

Re: the video game monomania - I've tried to make him see that meaningful relationships with others have to be two-sided. You need to take an interest in others too, it can't be all me me me. But I'm hamstrung here too, because the attitude of his parents is very much that this self-absorption is "just the way he is" and "just the autism" and that basically there's nothing to be done and we just have to put up with it. I'm really worried for his adult life and feel like this can't be all we can hope for from him? But I'm all alone in wanting or expecting more from him, it seems.

OP posts:
Thingybob · 19/08/2020 10:28

As OhHolyJesus says join him in his world, the video gaming one, but expand on it to bring it into the real world. Would you be able to engage him in something like giving his bedroom a video game makeover or maybe just painting a wall mural for either your home or his?

SheWhoMustNotBeHeard · 19/08/2020 10:20

It's exhausting dealing with someone with autism who has a hyper focused special interest, it really is. They just talk AT you, hours if you let them. It's doubly hard when it's about a subject you fundamentally disagree on so I completely sympathise.

Keep the contact short but frequent. I find that repeating back what they say in a neutral voice helps to shorten the conversation. I also do a lot of "oh really?" and "gosh" and "wow" and "that's interesting."

Good luck OP.

DreamingBe · 19/08/2020 10:19

I can't help with your question, but just wanted to say that if he's in a reasonably big town they might have a gaming cafe or similar place with regular events that you could encourage him to go to so he has an opportunity to make offline friends.

Clymene · 19/08/2020 09:25

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OhHolyJesus · 19/08/2020 09:13

I have a tiny bit of experience with autism, it's years ago so I have no idea what the current advice is, and it was with a much younger child, but I was taught to join them in what they were doing. This will prove difficult of course but maybe you can join in without agreeing?

I can't say I'd enjoy the video game chat either but it was also a fixation with the child I knew. I've no idea if he grew out of it but it was a way of connecting. Maybe there is a gentle way of steering the conversation to being more a critical thinking POV? And then it can be applied to trans stuff a bit later? I imagine this will be quite a while before the sunlight gets through. I remember the one sided nature of conversations and how exhausting it was so I have no doubt it would be difficult and I imagine you've already tried, but I do hope you can find a way though.

The autism and the people he is meeting online via the video games is very worrying.

Also thrilled your DNiece youweregreat has come to realise she's happy being a butch lesbian.

Good luck OP, I hope you find some support in RL too.

BlackWaveComing · 19/08/2020 08:24

Sorry, I was thinking you were an Aunt for some reason and not in the home with the child. If you are in the home, same applies. Matter of fact and kind about day to day things, boundary re angry gender discussions, use texts or messaging to convey non-confrontational care and connection.

BlackWaveComing · 19/08/2020 08:21

It's his special interest right now, it sounds like. Can you approach this more from that direction? More from a 'relationships don't thrive when one person's special interest is the only topic of discussion' type way?

I understand the feeling that he is lost. You may need to dial back person to person contact for now for your own sake. Go small and frequent. Text a funny meme, or funny picture, brief greetings etc. Game reviews, photos are good small connectors too.

The message you want to send is 'I'm setting a boundary here by stepping back from the power play around gender, because it's bad for us both, but I am still here and I care.'

contactusdeletus · 19/08/2020 08:14

@chickenyhead

she is identifying as a girl. That's her right. She is your child.
Not my child, as others have stated. But I was very close to this child when he was growing up, and was a caregiver when his parents were going through various issues. They've since split and moved away, so I don't see him or them as often as before.

Whether you believe in transgender children or not, I have a mountain of evidence to suggest that's not what's going on here. The child is autistic. He has social anxiety and depression. Hasn't been to school since he was nine years old. Has no friends, no job, no hobbies beyond video games. He also has a poor relationship with his mother, who refused to have him live with her after the divorce and who has made multiple comments in my hearing about how she hates the way boys smell, girls are just easier to deal with, the energy is so much better in an all-female house, etc. She's entitled to her opinions, of course, but it doesn't take a genius to see how the child might be interpreting all of this.

(For the record, I don't think she's behind his sudden push for transition, but I do think she's encouraging it by giving him the response he craves. She's fully on board, loves the idea of a trans kid and is very much playing by the affirmation playbook.)

There was never the slightest, tiniest, minutest hint this child was trans. I don't doubt he believes what he's feeling is real, but I really question where it's come from. It's not as if he's always felt this way, or as if the feelings are persisting despite an otherwise happy life. Am I really supposed to ignore the red flags here and assume he knows best? How can you justify that?

OP posts:
contactusdeletus · 19/08/2020 07:57

@BlackWaveComing

I have experienced this with two of my kids. I have to have my own support from a GC therapist to cope. It's a complete mind-fuck. I feel very distanced from currently experiencing ROGD child. He in turn despises my so-called bigotry. It's a nightmare.

In terms of what you can do, try to stay connected. Offer other conversations or experiences that have nothing to do with gender. Try to connect over music, hobbies etc. Don't confront but don't affirm. Practice active listening.

I did all this the first time round, and for the first year or so the second. It helps maintain sanity + relationship.

Thank you Flowers

I'm doing my best to stay connected with him but it is difficult. I don't see him as often as I'd like, and coronavirus has only made things harder in that respect. It's not like I can take him out bowling or anything to try and take his mind off it. Even if I could, I've tried for years to get him to come out of his shell a bit more and he's just not interested. He's autistic and basically has just one thing he's interested in: video games. From what I've seen, he spends about ten hours a day, minimum, playing these things. I've tried to get him into reading or talk to him about music or animals or other, more positive things, but it just doesn't seem to stick. It lasts about a minute and then we revert to one-sided conversations about video games. Don't get me wrong, it's preferable to the MRA phase he went through a few years ago where he would try to railroad me into angry conversations about how feminists were stupid and were ruining the world. But there's only so far I can go in engaging with the video game monomania. Even if I wanted to, I frankly don't have the time to buy a console and try to get into this myself. And I don't really feel I should have to in order to maintain a relationship with him.

Not that the video game thing really matters now. It's still an obsession with him, don't get me wrong, but the number one topic of conversation now is all things trans. It's exhausting.

I haven't been confronting. I've done my best to implement a policy of "let's agree to disagree" while still telling him I love him and will continue to love him, even if he does transition. But when he starts talking about gendered souls and how hormones can change the shape of the male pelvis, I have to bite my tongue. There's nothing I can say to that that won't provoke an argument. And it's just unrelenting on his side. He's trying to browbeat me into having some genderist epiphany, and I'm trying not to feed the beast. It doesn't make for easy interactions. I'm starting to feel like he's lost to me.

OP posts:
midgebabe · 19/08/2020 07:35

I would be trying to talk more, car rides side by side after something fun, because my personal experience ( there may well be many many other experiences ) is that type of problem came from a place of distress and turmoil and bullying and being unable to fit in due to some oddities of me being me

And strictly, the child can identify as a girl, but they can't actually be a girl

XXSex · 19/08/2020 07:32

Just starting this myself. Watching with interest. Wishing you strength.

chickenyhead · 19/08/2020 01:41

Yes, that would be midway, history cannot rightly be changed.

YouWereGr8InLittleMenstruators · 19/08/2020 01:40

(sent too soon)
...empathised with the discomfort and disorientation of said dysphoria. Luckily, DNiece, who completed social transitioning a couple of years ago, got cold feet watching a couple of her friends start hormone treatment and undergo mastectomies, and seems to have settled into being a butch lesbian instead this year.

BlackForestCake · 19/08/2020 01:39

she is identifying as a girl. That's her right. She is your child.

And the OP has the right not to have to participate in the child's fantasy of being a girl.

Forcing other people to pretend you are the opposite sex isn't a right.