Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Separating female and woman

58 replies

Blibbyblobby · 16/08/2020 22:22

Putting my head above the parapet...sorry but it's a long one...

I've been thinking a lot about how, should I be put on the spot (for example at work), I can articulate my position on gender without standing on the "TERF" landmine and making any further discussion impossible.

And I am concerned that if the word Woman is redefined I won't honestly be able to identify as one any more, which could exclude me from anti-sexism opportunities and protections.

And I've also been thinking about how GC and Reactionary Right voices are superficially aligned on gender but actually coming from totally incompatible positions, and I do not want to express myself in a way that someone in that Reactionary Right could take as validation.

While clearly there is an irreconcilable difference between believing all gender identities are real and believing no gender identities are real, fundamental to both is the insight that most of the stuff traditionally bundled up as Man or Woman is nothing to do with biological sex and everything to do with society and socialisation. That puts me in the second camp much closer to the Genderists* in the first than to those who don't believe TWAW because they DO believe the traditionally Male and Female stuff is biologically driven.

So, let's for the sake of argument accept that TWAW and TMAM. Let's accept people genuinely have a gender identity that is innate to them and should be accepted not challenged.

Irrespective of their gender identity, people who are female have specific needs arising from the challenges and capabilities of a female body in our society which people who are male don't have. (And vice versa of course, but this post is about females).

Things that are needed by females include: period- and incontinence- friendly toilet setup, maternity support including non-career-impacting breaks, female sports, tooling and product designs that safely fit the female body.

Things that females shouldn't need but in our current society they do: physical protection from aggressive males, social protection from entitled males, access childcare, support for caring for dependants, educational and career opportunities to address the disadvantages of female socialisation and social expectations others have of females.

Taking this perspective, most of the laws, services, protections and opportunities for "Women" are actually aimed at Females because they are not needed by or of use to Males. But the time they were written/established, "Woman" and "(Adult human) Female" were synonymous and Woman was the more conventional term, so they were defined as Women-only rather than Female-only.

Feminism, understanding that the concept of Woman is both biological and cultural and that Women's oppression rests on the cultural constructs that have been built around our biology, has focused on mitigating, challenging, disproving and eventually dissolving these cultural constructs. That focus puts us in direct conflict with those who believe TWAW because the only way TW can be completely Women is to make the definition of Woman entirely non-biological.

Perhaps however, a faster route to where we want to be is to accept the concept of Woman is too tainted with cultural baggage to ever undo, and actually align with the genderists (with whom we share that fundamental insight that feminine is separate from female) by giving them the word Woman for the cultural construct, thereby gaining from their fight to decouple culture and biology, while the Feminist effort focuses on empowering individuals of the Female sex under the banner of Female whatever their gender identity (or lack of). Female then is not an opposition to any trans identities but exists alongside them, including Females of any gender and excluding only Males, of any gender.

So I realise I could actually be comfortable with saying is "TW are Women", as long as I can caveat with "but in practical terms I can't agree with TW being treated as Women in all things until we've gone back, worked out which spaces, protections and opportunities currently defined as Women only were really intended to be Female-only, and redefined them as such. Then everything that remains as Women-only is absolutely open to TW, and the Female-supporting items are open to any Female including TM, non-binary females and any other gender identity."

I realise this is pretty much just arguing for single sex spaces, but I think it's helpful to reframe this debate with an acknowledgement that the word Woman has historically conflated the cultural and the biological, the biological aspects of Woman cannot be available to TW, to truly allow TW to be Women we need to separate the two, and that separation is something that's also core to most feminism.

To be clear, this isn't "oh ok then, TW can be Women if they want, all we Real Girls will just leave that room and go into the one marked Female". This is about recognising that both those who promote or support Trans causes and those who reject gender entirely will be helped by having separate, explicit social and legal concepts for being biologically female and for socially identifying as feminine.

If the Genderists are right, the social gender Woman will continue to exist and be meaningful. If the GC are right, it will eventually become irrelevant because without the cultural "engine" of biological sex to drive gendered socialisation of children, grouping unrelated preferences and behaviours into gender buckets just peters out. Either way, Females continue to get the services, protection and support their sex requires.

(* -ist as in Theist not -ist as in racist )

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 17/08/2020 10:35

I'll get absolutely flamed on here but I have also seen genuine transphobia from some posters on the feminist boards.

Why would you get flamed? Many have seen it, reported it and it's been deleted, and persistent offenders banned. If there's any instances you think have been missed, then hit the report button, don't just leave it to other people. MNHQ would rather have multiple reports than none. If there are cases you think are transphobic which you've reported which haven't been deleted then maybe they're just women being assertive about their rights or suchlike.

CloudyVanilla · 17/08/2020 10:25

I think I'm quite similar to you OP, I first heard about trans issues mainly through mumsnet and took a lot on board that it didn't balance in my head with anything else. Now realising that a lot of far right people have the same view of trans people as gender critical feminists. I'll get absolutely flamed on here but I have also seen genuine transphobia from some posters on the feminist boards.

I've been taking in more information, if you like YouTube then the user PhilospophyTube has a good video for balance. I now feel much more comfortable with my views on trans women and feel much happier. They were at odds with my otherwise very tolerant and accepting views. I welcome trans women as women because why would I have need to isolate them.

I think the views on the MN feminism boards may, perhaps unintentionally, give women new to their views on trans women that all or most trans women are all after our female serving safe spaces are female exclusive services that are necessary to us due our biology, and not that they're just trying to live their lives as trans women.

Melroses · 17/08/2020 10:19

There is no boundary between female and woman. A woman is a female human. They are inextricably bound.

It starts with the pronouns - they are just language, then the feminine and masculine - they are just social, then woman is just social, then sex is just a social construct.

Female, woman, she.

Forcing our brains to ignore the evidence of our eyes, to ignore a conflict between what we see and know to be true, and what we are expected to say, affects us.

uncommongroundmedia.com/banned-from-medium-pronouns-are-rohypnol/

gardenbird48 · 17/08/2020 10:18

@ErrolTheDragon

worked out which spaces, protections and opportunities currently defined as Women only were really intended to be Female-only

It's already all of them. The exclusions under the EA relate to sex. There is absolutely no basis for any segregation by 'gender' - why would there be?
Of course, this segregation has already been broken down despite the law - male pupils in girls loos, males in women's sports, males in jobs where there is a specific requirement for a woman etc etc etc - we certainly do need a return to legality and sex segregated 'spaces, protections and opportunities' being purely on the basis of sex.

I hope it is clear that the bulk of my previous post was a quote from the op (bolding fail)

As I thought Errol - I can't think of any sex based provisions/protections that aren't necessary for women - but I do wonder what Blibby thought might be deemed surplus to our requirements?

ErrolTheDragon · 17/08/2020 10:08

worked out which spaces, protections and opportunities currently defined as Women only were really intended to be Female-only

It's already all of them. The exclusions under the EA relate to sex. There is absolutely no basis for any segregation by 'gender' - why would there be?
Of course, this segregation has already been broken down despite the law - male pupils in girls loos, males in women's sports, males in jobs where there is a specific requirement for a woman etc etc etc - we certainly do need a return to legality and sex segregated 'spaces, protections and opportunities' being purely on the basis of sex.

gardenbird48 · 17/08/2020 08:53

So I realise I could actually be comfortable with saying is "TW are Women", as long as I can caveat with "but in practical terms I can't agree with TW being treated as Women in all things until we've gone back, worked out which spaces, protections and opportunities currently defined as Women only were really intended to be Female-only, and redefined them as such. Then everything that remains as Women-only is absolutely open to TW, and the Female-supporting items are open to any Female including TM, non-binary females and any other gender identity.
Which spaces, protections and opportunities do you think would get dropped off the ‘Female only’ list? Which are the protections that females/women no longer need?

ChattyLion · 17/08/2020 08:22

I thought you set out the issues really well and I can see that on some other issues (which could be discussed openly in a normal political setting) both sides could barter openly for what they wanted to reach a workable compromise using just the type of breakdown you’ve given.

However genderism is an authoritarian dogma, a quasi-religious belief system, complete with heresies, and multiple easily disproved articles of faith.
It is a dogma completely built on sexist ideas. Genderism weaponises gender (ie harmful, limiting stereotypes of ‘femininity ‘ and ‘masculinity’) against women because of our sex, just like all the other expressions of sexism going back into history have done.

Genderism is a men’s sexual (in both senses) entitlement campaign. The problem with narcissistic entitlement is that narcissists will never be satisfied and will always move the goalposts further their way whatever the detriment to others.
Only total capitulation from others will satisfy them.

So there is no point in trying to have any ‘negotiations’ because there can be no compromise. The response needs to be urgently shoring up emotional, social and legal boundaries. This has nothing in common with the ‘reactionary right’ you mention, also powered by sexism and who also want control over women’s bodies and lives, while being happy to let men determine their own lives.

Flapjak · 17/08/2020 07:53

Women are women and trans people are either transgender of whatever 100 genders they wish to identify into. The biological needs / demands of a female body havent changed over the millenia so there is no justification to include born males as meaning the same as woman. Also this helps no one, as trans people have their own set of unique issues that are not experienced by women/men, such as the lifelong effects of surgery/medication/ actual transphobia , internalised homophobia, access to proper therapy/treatment for gender dysphoria etc. More energy should be spent on directing their resources on that rathet than trying to justify the right for males to disregard womens rights to privacy dignity and female only spaces

ThinEndoftheWedge · 17/08/2020 07:46

Please do not ever separate women from female.

They are inseparable.

Female defines what women are. Women defines what human females are

That’s why the trans lobby need to divide - to rule.

ItsLateHumpty · 17/08/2020 07:11

Just to repeat ErrolTheDragon and WhereYouLeftIt

Female is a scientific term that refers to the sex class of a species that is capable of producing young.
The term woman refers specifically to human beings, while female could refer to any species.

So if you remove woman do I become non-human?

I know you’re trying to be nice. The problem is, they aren’t.

WhereYouLeftIt · 17/08/2020 01:03

On another point:

"And I've also been thinking about how GC and Reactionary Right voices are superficially aligned on gender but actually coming from totally incompatible positions, and I do not want to express myself in a way that someone in that Reactionary Right could take as validation."

The Genderists have just as much in common with who I think you mean by 'Reactionary Right' as GC.

Separating female and woman
WhereYouLeftIt · 17/08/2020 01:00

I can add nothing to what everyone has already said.

Woman = adult human female, just as
Mare = adult equine female and
Sow = adult porcine female.

Woman means female. A female who is adult and human to boot. They're already coming after the word 'female'.

PastMyBestBeforeDate · 17/08/2020 00:44

Whatever word we use to describe women will become a target.
We should draw the line at the word we've used for hundreds of years. Everyone knows what it means. Our biology may be all we have in common but it is unchanged over millennia.

ThePawtriarchy · 17/08/2020 00:40

I think you’re tying yourself up in knots. Women are adult human females, biologically so (whether they have uteruses or periods or have had hysterectomies or bear children or do not bear children). The other adults are biological men or males whether they take hormones or have surgery or try to breastfeed. I’m done with it, really.

ChakaDakotaRegina · 17/08/2020 00:31

@testing987654321

we need a word for adult human female. That word is woman.

This. For reasons I don't fully understand the OP is coming up with a complicated system to allow the phrase TWAW to make sense. They aren't, so it doesn't.

This.

We’ve already seen a TW or two describe themselves as a c!s woman, so even this hateful term isn’t for us (not that we want it)

It’s normal for language to evolve but it’s not normal for biology to be considered offensive and for people to be tripped up and shamed and policed.

stumbledin · 17/08/2020 00:10

I think what OP has written just shows the power of words. And how sucessful queer politics has been in recent decades in getting people to use sex and gender as though they were the same.

It is not that long ago that everyone knew that women meant adult bilogical female. That's why we have the Sex Discrimination Act. Because in living memory nobody believed the mumbo jumbo that queer politics has been subverting language with.

In fact no one ever really used the word "gender". People talked about feminine / femininity or masculine / musculinity.

But queer politics in colonising Women's Studies (which were the same as having Black Studies ie accepting that sections of society had not and are not given equal weight) and turning it into Gender Studies immediately started down the part of erasing the reality of women. And by erasing the reality of sex, men could then deny that they could be a sex class divide.

So we just need to dig in, and continue to object to men trying to colonise our reality.

I dont think we are winning - yet - but because trans have gotover confident they are now making such outrageous demands that more people are standing up and saying thisis bllcks.

And we owe to those speaking up not to concede eg this:

"The health board’s policy is that nobody should be obliged to use facilities “designated for use by the gender they were assigned at birth”. Why, Marra asked, if NHS Lanarkshire believes gender is assigned at birth, does it offer expectant mothers the option of discovering their child’s sex at 20 weeks of gestation?

For highlighting this contradiction in a policy document, Marra – one of a number of female politicians who have raised concerns that plans to make it easier for people to self-identity as the gender of their choice stands to erode women’s sex-based rights – is now the target of a campaign by activists.

Labour LGBT+ Scotland – an affiliate of the Scottish Labour Party – is demanding that leader Richard Leonard takes action against the MSP. "

www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/trans-rights-activists-are-letting-down-people-they-represent-euan-mccolm-2943646

SetYourselfOnFire · 17/08/2020 00:04

OP, this is where I was at 5 years ago. It's a fine compromise. The problem is they won't agree. They already are using 'female', even 'biological female', and also saying biological sex doesn't exist and there's no difference between them and us at all. Not different enough to warrant 'female services' that don't include them. See, ActionAid and Cervixes and Ovarian Cancer etc. Or putting transwomen in charge of intimate services for traumatized rape victims who can't be touched by men.

RoseTintedAtuin · 17/08/2020 00:03

Let me get this right... after generations of being considered property of men, decades of fighting for our own rights and space and even now having to work twice as hard as men to achieve career success as well as still being main carers in the home... we are now expected to give up our identity as women because someone else (biologically men who I completely understand identify as what society deems feminine) want to use that word??
No.
I am happy to support teams women in finding their safe space and fighting for laws which protect them and fighting to access counselling to address their needs etc. But trans-women are trans-women. Biological women are women. You can’t just decide you want ‘ownership’ of a word and demand its meaning (which has been the same for as long as language has existed) be changed to accommodate your wants.

ContentiousOne · 16/08/2020 23:49

No.

When women have conceded this, TRA's have moved on to claiming TW are female.

So no. They don't get either. Woman is the word for a grown female, girl is the name for a juvenile female.

If males don't want to called men because they prefer to live as their idea of 'woman', there's already a name, transwoman.

Not woman, not female.

testing987654321 · 16/08/2020 23:44

we need a word for adult human female. That word is woman.

This. For reasons I don't fully understand the OP is coming up with a complicated system to allow the phrase TWAW to make sense. They aren't, so it doesn't.

Winesalot · 16/08/2020 23:39

Sadly, I too have seen far too much of the narrative that insists that transwomen are female and have always been female just in the wrong body to believe that your proposition would work.

And if we follow this suggestion in the UK, what about the rest of the world. Do women who are using the English language (or any language for that matter) to describe themselves have to change too. Women and girls who have little autonomy over their lives and their futures now. What happens to them in this significant change of meaning of the word women?

I have never seen an activist actually articulate how they are helping women and girls in these situations at all by changing their language to describe themselves too.

TyroSaysMeow · 16/08/2020 23:14

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

ANewCreation · 16/08/2020 23:10

No, thanks!

I need the words 'female' and 'woman' and 'girl' to describe myself and the 3.5 billion plus people on the planet who share my reproductive class.

Personally happy to hand over 'feminine', 'femininity', 'girly', 'feminised', 'effeminate' etc though as I don't have much use for them.

WorkingItOutAsIGo · 16/08/2020 23:00

Nope. Firstly it’s a lie. Secondly, as Neville chamberlain could tell you, appeasement never works.

littlbrowndog · 16/08/2020 22:59

Don’t concede. You will never be done conceding

You will just become a cervix haver or some such tripe