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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Separating female and woman

58 replies

Blibbyblobby · 16/08/2020 22:22

Putting my head above the parapet...sorry but it's a long one...

I've been thinking a lot about how, should I be put on the spot (for example at work), I can articulate my position on gender without standing on the "TERF" landmine and making any further discussion impossible.

And I am concerned that if the word Woman is redefined I won't honestly be able to identify as one any more, which could exclude me from anti-sexism opportunities and protections.

And I've also been thinking about how GC and Reactionary Right voices are superficially aligned on gender but actually coming from totally incompatible positions, and I do not want to express myself in a way that someone in that Reactionary Right could take as validation.

While clearly there is an irreconcilable difference between believing all gender identities are real and believing no gender identities are real, fundamental to both is the insight that most of the stuff traditionally bundled up as Man or Woman is nothing to do with biological sex and everything to do with society and socialisation. That puts me in the second camp much closer to the Genderists* in the first than to those who don't believe TWAW because they DO believe the traditionally Male and Female stuff is biologically driven.

So, let's for the sake of argument accept that TWAW and TMAM. Let's accept people genuinely have a gender identity that is innate to them and should be accepted not challenged.

Irrespective of their gender identity, people who are female have specific needs arising from the challenges and capabilities of a female body in our society which people who are male don't have. (And vice versa of course, but this post is about females).

Things that are needed by females include: period- and incontinence- friendly toilet setup, maternity support including non-career-impacting breaks, female sports, tooling and product designs that safely fit the female body.

Things that females shouldn't need but in our current society they do: physical protection from aggressive males, social protection from entitled males, access childcare, support for caring for dependants, educational and career opportunities to address the disadvantages of female socialisation and social expectations others have of females.

Taking this perspective, most of the laws, services, protections and opportunities for "Women" are actually aimed at Females because they are not needed by or of use to Males. But the time they were written/established, "Woman" and "(Adult human) Female" were synonymous and Woman was the more conventional term, so they were defined as Women-only rather than Female-only.

Feminism, understanding that the concept of Woman is both biological and cultural and that Women's oppression rests on the cultural constructs that have been built around our biology, has focused on mitigating, challenging, disproving and eventually dissolving these cultural constructs. That focus puts us in direct conflict with those who believe TWAW because the only way TW can be completely Women is to make the definition of Woman entirely non-biological.

Perhaps however, a faster route to where we want to be is to accept the concept of Woman is too tainted with cultural baggage to ever undo, and actually align with the genderists (with whom we share that fundamental insight that feminine is separate from female) by giving them the word Woman for the cultural construct, thereby gaining from their fight to decouple culture and biology, while the Feminist effort focuses on empowering individuals of the Female sex under the banner of Female whatever their gender identity (or lack of). Female then is not an opposition to any trans identities but exists alongside them, including Females of any gender and excluding only Males, of any gender.

So I realise I could actually be comfortable with saying is "TW are Women", as long as I can caveat with "but in practical terms I can't agree with TW being treated as Women in all things until we've gone back, worked out which spaces, protections and opportunities currently defined as Women only were really intended to be Female-only, and redefined them as such. Then everything that remains as Women-only is absolutely open to TW, and the Female-supporting items are open to any Female including TM, non-binary females and any other gender identity."

I realise this is pretty much just arguing for single sex spaces, but I think it's helpful to reframe this debate with an acknowledgement that the word Woman has historically conflated the cultural and the biological, the biological aspects of Woman cannot be available to TW, to truly allow TW to be Women we need to separate the two, and that separation is something that's also core to most feminism.

To be clear, this isn't "oh ok then, TW can be Women if they want, all we Real Girls will just leave that room and go into the one marked Female". This is about recognising that both those who promote or support Trans causes and those who reject gender entirely will be helped by having separate, explicit social and legal concepts for being biologically female and for socially identifying as feminine.

If the Genderists are right, the social gender Woman will continue to exist and be meaningful. If the GC are right, it will eventually become irrelevant because without the cultural "engine" of biological sex to drive gendered socialisation of children, grouping unrelated preferences and behaviours into gender buckets just peters out. Either way, Females continue to get the services, protection and support their sex requires.

(* -ist as in Theist not -ist as in racist )

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SonEtLumiere · 18/08/2020 07:17

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 18/08/2020 00:07

I'd go so far as to say the formation of males' gendered identities under patriarchy is an inherently misogynistic process, because the degradation of the female is so intrinsically bound up in it

Not waffling at all, Tyro - I think you’re right on the money here!

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 18/08/2020 00:03

@WhereYouLeftIt

"Surely anything that dismisses the idea of being inclusive to trans women is transphobic by nature though?"

"Inclusive". What a weasel word that it. Got a little halo of positive vibes, hasn't it? Inclusive good, exclusive bad. But why is it seen as automatically good?

Would it be good to include the able-bodied in the Paralympics?

Would it be good to include adults in the 14-16 categories for sports, art, writing competitions?

Would it be good to include white people in mentoring schemes aiming to increase participation of black youth in predominantly-white professions?

If you say 'yes' to any of those questions, then - you're an arse.

But somehow, you want me to believe that it is good to include males in access to resources set aside for females?

Jog on.

'Exclusion' from using resources that have been set aside for not-you is not a bad thing. So stop using that weasel word 'inclusion' to pretend that it is a Universal Good Thing, because everyone who gives it two seconds of thought can see that it is NOT.

Yes yes yes to this.

It’s extraordinary the success of the propaganda campaign to make liberal-minded people think that there is something inherently morally good and desirable about “including” people in a grouping from which they should by definition be excluded.

Of course no male people should be “included” in the grouping “female people”. It’s ridiculous. Absurd. Male people are, by definition, not female. And, given the eternal and brutal history of oppression, domination and abuse of female people by male people, it’s misogynistic and offensive to women - female people - in the extreme to suggest they should ever be “included”.

And yet here we are, in 2020, with a seemingly endless parade of “strategically ignorant” (thanks Glosswitch) self-identifying progressives bleating on and on and on about how it’s just mean and unkind and horribly wrong not to include males in the grouping females if the males say they want to be/feel like/are in some indefinable but supposedly essential way, females.

I wonder which class of people would have had the resources to fund and promote such a stunningly successful propaganda campaign? Oh yes. The ones who already had the upper hand, of course. The ones who had the power and the privilege.The male ones. Surprise, surprise!

I see your weaselly (indeed) accusation of “transphobia“, CloudyVanilla, and I raise you with your own blatant and shameless misogyny. There should be no place for that on a Feminist board, or anywhere else that purports to be progressive or in any way concerned with social justice.

Bullshit is still bullshit, however you dress it up.

Winesalot · 17/08/2020 23:29

I think many person who read these threads regularly is far better read than the people who come to these boards to simply shame women for fighting for their rights.

There is plenty of information presented and linked to that allows people to make up their own minds. I have found far more people who argue that the regular posters here are phobic tend to read debunked opinion pieces, stats that have been found to be misleading or misinterpreted and studies that have not been peer reviewed or repeatable.

Kettlingur · 17/08/2020 21:25

I've already seen trans women calling themselves females and even CIS females. I don't know who it was on reddit who once said "if we let them have 'woman' and start calling ourselves fnergyn they'll soon be claiming to be more fnergyn than any fnergyn that ever fnergyned".

Because it's not about the word.

StillNotAGirl · 17/08/2020 17:03

@ANewCreation

No, thanks!

I need the words 'female' and 'woman' and 'girl' to describe myself and the 3.5 billion plus people on the planet who share my reproductive class.

Personally happy to hand over 'feminine', 'femininity', 'girly', 'feminised', 'effeminate' etc though as I don't have much use for them.

This ^
ErrolTheDragon · 17/08/2020 12:01

Maybe try telling blokes they should be 'inclusive' of transwomen? Trans people should not be discriminated against versus people of their own sex. They (along with all gender nonconforming people) should not be mocked for their gender presentation, and certainly not subjected to violence because of it. Why not try focussing on the more egregious acts of transphobia committed mostly by men?

Dryadia · 17/08/2020 12:00

WhereYouLeftIt

Indeed, why not alongside rather than in your place.

WhereYouLeftIt · 17/08/2020 11:51

"Surely anything that dismisses the idea of being inclusive to trans women is transphobic by nature though?"

"Inclusive". What a weasel word that it. Got a little halo of positive vibes, hasn't it? Inclusive good, exclusive bad. But why is it seen as automatically good?

Would it be good to include the able-bodied in the Paralympics?

Would it be good to include adults in the 14-16 categories for sports, art, writing competitions?

Would it be good to include white people in mentoring schemes aiming to increase participation of black youth in predominantly-white professions?

If you say 'yes' to any of those questions, then - you're an arse.

But somehow, you want me to believe that it is good to include males in access to resources set aside for females?

Jog on.

'Exclusion' from using resources that have been set aside for not-you is not a bad thing. So stop using that weasel word 'inclusion' to pretend that it is a Universal Good Thing, because everyone who gives it two seconds of thought can see that it is NOT.

TyroSaysMeow · 17/08/2020 11:47

Dryadia well spotted.

That which is associated with the female becomes degraded over time. Such is the nature of patriarchal cultures. Happens in language as well as career options etc; indicative of our perceived status and worth. Have a think about how the meanings of e.g. master/mistress have changed over time. Same pattern.

It's quite sad, really, that they've always felt this need to define themselves as not-women. They reinforce their construction of manhood by degrading as feminine that which falls outside their narrow construction of masculinity. The whole "kicking effeminate gay males out of the man club" is, of course, another example of this.

Actually, thinking about it, I'd go so far as to say the formation of males' gendered identities under patriarchy is an inherently misogynistic process, because the degradation of the female is so intrinsically bound up in it. I'll stop waffling now though, cos I haven't got this thought fully worked out yet.

ErrolTheDragon · 17/08/2020 11:44

And the concern about kids is another reason for rejecting attempts to muddy and distort language. Telling a 'feminine' little boy he's really a girl wouldn't be helped much by also telling him he's still male (though a shade better than deluding him he can actually change sex), likewise telling a "tomboy" or androgynous older girl she's really a boy albeit still female. How on Earth would that help the teenager who is scared of developing breasts and starting periods?

ErrolTheDragon · 17/08/2020 11:39

That's not true. We've had quite a number of lengthy threads on various transmen, some fairly recently.

Much of the concern about gender nonconforming kids being directed along the trans pathway is about girls. Oddly enough, the feminism board on a parenting website cares about their long term wellbeing.

OvaHere · 17/08/2020 11:30

@CloudyVanilla

Surely anything that dismisses the idea of being inclusive to trans women is transphobic by nature though? That's where I've come so far over the other side now. Its not just about being rude or name calling, ideas can be transphobic, even when they are seemingly sensible. So what makes a sensible argument transphobic? The underlying thought processes, sentiments and ideology.

I'm not saying MN feminism is all completely transphobic. I will say though that if you get your information on trans people solely from mumsnet, you would probably have a particular and not very favourable view of trans women (because let's be real, trans men are almost never discussed). I don't think anyone on here can genuinely believe otherwise

That's not true. We've had quite a number of lengthy threads on various transmen, some fairly recently. Not as many as the male contingent but that's because there's less TM in influential positions and across the board tend to be less vocal and aggressive (can't imagine why that is!). We've also discussed detransitoners who overwhelmingly are female.

Inevitably there will be more discussion of male behaviour here, the way it effects women individually and as a group because it's the feminism board. That's the point. You wouldn't get a very favourable view of men in general from reading this board.

Sexnotgender · 17/08/2020 11:21

I had a similar discussion with my daughter. She thought by conceding woman and ‘abolishing’ gender and going to just male and female we’d all be just dandy.

It’s naive in the extreme to think the word female wouldn’t then be targeted.

VirginiaComet · 17/08/2020 11:16

**A purity spiral occurs when a community becomes fixated on implementing a single value that has no upper limit, and no single agreed interpretation.

The result is a moral feeding frenzy. But while a purity spiral often concerns morality, it is not about morality.**

This rings true; I watched the knitting drama from the sidelines of Ravelry, and was in a Guilty Feminist Facebook group that became extremely self-absorbed and moralistic in a way that was almost cultish (e.g. people were told they couldn't leave the group without explanation, and the explanations were torn down and mocked before the person was ejected anyway...)

I would agree with CloudyVanilla, though, that it's not like discussion here is tolerant of contradiction or even questions that are deemed to suggest the poster has TRA leanings... You have whole threads on how to identify antagonists, for example.

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 17/08/2020 11:13

I just sneezed on my ipad

Might be karma

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 17/08/2020 11:13

And that’s probably a bit harsh to cloudyvanilla

But i keep seeing this Sort of post and its really irritating

Dryadia · 17/08/2020 11:13

Funny, just said pretty much the same on the non bio thread.

My view female/male is simply words we have applied to Sexual dimorphism species.

Woman is female of the human species. Just like doe, vixen or ewe is the word we have given to describe a female deer, fox and sheep.

Everything else is just character, abilities, personal traits and society's pigeonholes.

Also looking at the female names for mammals, god they seem so depressingly sexist. Or is it, that so many are used as an insult? Really not the same for the male versions. Funny that!

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 17/08/2020 11:03

I will say though that if you get your information on trans people solely from mumsnet

I think this is quite insulting actually

There are many links on these threads to all sorts of places, also many women don’t just read some random nobodies (no offence to anyone on FWR) post on here and take it as gospel

The majority of mumsnetters aren’t gullible idiots who won’t check what someone is saying (not cloudvanillas words...my words)

Even when it comes to a makeup recommendation i doubt anyone just replies on a particular post

Melroses · 17/08/2020 11:01

This is a very good programme on BBC R4 for people confused by the severe enforcement of morals that lack boundaries.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000d70h

A purity spiral occurs when a community becomes fixated on implementing a single value that has no upper limit, and no single agreed interpretation.

The result is a moral feeding frenzy. But while a purity spiral often concerns morality, it is not about morality.

If you don't want to listen, there is a written account here:

unherd.com/2020/01/cast-out-how-knitting-fell-into-a-purity-spiral/

ErrolTheDragon · 17/08/2020 11:01

Surely anything that dismisses the idea of being inclusive to trans women is transphobic by nature though?

So you think the exemptions under the EA which allow sex segregation where there is a specific need are 'transphobic'? You think women's sports are 'transphobic'? You think that women who continue to assert that woman=adult human female are all transphobic? Well, sure, in that case you'll see a lot of transphobia on here but sorry, this is a feminism board and we defend the right to prioritise females and not include males, and don't accept your narrow definition of 'transphobia'.

CloudyVanilla · 17/08/2020 10:53

Surely anything that dismisses the idea of being inclusive to trans women is transphobic by nature though? That's where I've come so far over the other side now. Its not just about being rude or name calling, ideas can be transphobic, even when they are seemingly sensible. So what makes a sensible argument transphobic? The underlying thought processes, sentiments and ideology.

I'm not saying MN feminism is all completely transphobic. I will say though that if you get your information on trans people solely from mumsnet, you would probably have a particular and not very favourable view of trans women (because let's be real, trans men are almost never discussed). I don't think anyone on here can genuinely believe otherwise

Melroses · 17/08/2020 10:45

Yes - the boundaries of the concept of transphobia are very wide and all embracing. Very inclusive.Wink

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 17/08/2020 10:40

I'll get absolutely flamed on here but I have also seen genuine transphobia from some posters on the feminist boards

Everyone has, but its reported and removed

Having said that the definition of ‘transphobia’ varies wildly

ErrolTheDragon · 17/08/2020 10:38

I think the views on the MN feminism boards may, perhaps unintentionally, give women new to their views on trans women that all or most trans women are all after our female serving safe spaces are female exclusive services that are necessary to us due our biology, and not that they're just trying to live their lives as trans women.

Regular posters try to make the distinction between TW in general and TRAs in particular. If like many of us you want to support TW who aren't after women's safe spaces, there's a petition on the petitions & activism board you might want to find.

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