Dads get PND apparently

We were having a similar sort of discussion in our adoption support group, post adoption depression is a recognised illness by the NHS. Interestingly a few of the mums had to have medical history corrected as they were being diagnosed with PND rather than PAD, my own GP didn’t know that PAD is when I first started discussing it with her.

Mental health provision in the UK is poor, depression and poor mental health after becoming is essentially expected. So I’m not surprised that the NHS hasn’t bothered to specifically recognise it in men after their partner gives birth and just gives it the same name/diagnosis.

(www.nhs.uk/Livewell/adoption-and-fostering/Documents/Adoption%20UK%20Factsheet%2014%20-%20Post-adoption%20depression%20June%202013.pdf)

I wonder how many of them have become psychotic and how many have committed suicide.

Post paternal is probably a much better term. Though you can quite imagine some men having the perfect excuse for a reluctance to get involved with care. I say this because it’s still very, very common for men to either fully or partially absolve themselves from caring responsibilities at all stages of a child’s. Even in more modern times, and even with a greater requirement for parents to provide more emotional support and attention to kids.

Sometimes, the absolving is very hidden but then you realise they do what the hell they want, when they want to and make huge life decisions on the basis of just knowing the female partner (I’m being heteronormative here by the way) will pick up the slack and have the ultimate responsibility for the child/ren.

I hope this is changing because it’s not changed in my generation, I’m afraid. It’s just we now manage it and a full time job out the home.

Newsflash, his wife's breasts never did belong to him. 🙄

Any major life event can trigger a situational depression in anyone . But it isn’t equivalent to mothers getting PND. The pregnancy, birth process, the extreme hormonal fluctuations and that you often can’t get a proper rest afterwards and have a huge amount of social expectation to be in love with your baby, fulfilled, a natural, is just a different level. And in no way compares to fathers being impacted by the new arrival and It’s appropriating (a word I rarely use) to say it is.

You may as well say that men can get PMT because they get upset in the run up to their partner's period.
Except they can't.

I think the tone of some posts here is unhelpful.

Ok, it was a mistake to call it PND but the experience they are describing is real and worthy of attention.

It's no good calling men out for not being involved in their children's lives and then railing at them for describing the emotional shockwaves that may come with that involvement.

Yes, perhaps there is a better term for it that PND, however my labour had a massive effect on my husband. He watched his wife go through immeasurable pain, a crash section, numerous tests, etc... and yes whilst it was me who had to go through all of this I was largely off my face on drugs and perhaps not realising the gravity of the situation and relying on those around me to make decisions.

If my husband had watched me experience a horrific car crash he would have been offered counselling and extensive mental health support. After watching me labour for 48 hours and then receive emergency surgery he was offered thirty minutes in the recovery suite with me and then sent to make his own way home at 2am.

You're telling me that that wouldn't have an effect on a man?

I think men can suffer some form of depression after a child is born. My friend did, he killed himself a few months after the birth of his child.

Just FYI, men do go through hormonal changes upon becoming fathers, as well as changes in the brain:

www.nytimes.com/2020/04/15/parenting/baby/fatherhood-mens-bodies.html

This appears to be linked to how much care they provide for their babies. It’s not a massive stretch to consider some outliers might have their endocrine systems go haywire, and require some additional support from mental health services.

I have no idea how common this as it’s not a particularly well explored area of research, but it is scientifically inaccurate to say men have zero hormonal responses to fatherhood, and when hormones are in operation there is always the chance of them functioning incorrectly.

If the nomenclature is a problem, and I agree it’s probably a mistake to conflate it with PND, as we have different hormones operating differently, just call it post paternal depression or something.

Some of the responses teeter dangerously close to expecting men to just man up when they are struggling, which is a pretty big contributor to the toxic masculinity we would all benefit from being well rid of.

I know all too well how devastating PND can be, I had a female friend I visited in a special psychiatric maternity ward, so I am in no way claiming parity here, but I think it would be very unwise to attempt to brush this under the carpet, it should at the very least spark scientific/medical curiosity and certainly not outright derision.

I agree with Boggled. I've known of several men who developed depression after the birth of their child. It's not hormonal but it is caused in part by life changes and not helped by sleep deprivation.

DH's depression was resolved when he decided to quit work entirely and take up full time parenting instead.

Having a child can affect men’s MH so fair play that’s he’s set his own up rather than expected women to do it.

Sorry meant to link www.nhs.uk/conditions/post-natal-depression/

According the the NHS, men can experience PND:

It's a common problem, affecting more than 1 in every 10 women within a year of giving birth. It can also affect fathers and partners.

I don't think they trying to be trans inclusive here, I think they do mean biological males.

Interestingly, this page goes on to list a number if causes of PND, all of which could equally apply to mothers or fathers. Hormonal changes and the physical impact of giving birth and nursing are completely absent, which seems a pretty shocking oversight to me. I had PND after my first DC was born and it was triggered entirely due to huge problems with establishing breastfeeding following a 72+ hour labour and emergency section that left me physically broken.

They could at least give it a different name - as men will not experience the crashing rollercoaster of hormones.

Agree. Of course lack of sleep and a massive life change can trigger depression in men. However, confusing the terms is not helpful and trivialises both PND in women and depression in new fathers.

Men can become depressed after the birth of a child, and it can have nothing to do with no longer getting attention/sex. Perhaps it’s not postnatal depression but it definitely is a mental health problem.

Given that OED defines post-natal as 'Relating to or denoting the period after childbirth', I don't have a problem with describing what men experience as post natal depression.
I can't see it on the OED but the other online dictionaries (Collins etc) define it as a condition suffered by women who have given birth. The trouble with referring to a 'fatherhood onset/ triggering/witnessing a birth' related depression suffered by men as Postnatal depression is along the same lines as the TWAW discussion (ie. having the concept of female females and male females). The diagnosis, treatment and monitoring for PND suffered by women will by its nature be different to the diagnosis, treatment and monitoring for men so it is highly detrimental to the treatment of either to call it that. There is a risk for PND (as suffered by women) to develop into Post partum psychosis which could be deadly so the importance of appropriate monitoring can be quite high.

There is already a mental health term - adjustment disorder.

I agree that to call bunch it all under PND is not right.

It should be handled distinctly, because the challenges a man experiences pre, during and post birth are different.

Responsibility for bills, becoming a father and what that means, examining their own relationships, which change dramatically with a child, societal expectations of being a provider when your in a precarious financial situation, loss of freedom,

Women, for all the shit of actually going through it, do actually get a modicum of understanding - men are left to get on with it to a large extent or are blamed/shamed when they find it difficult.

I don't think poor mental health should be a competition, but I reckon it will help more people to have a dialogue of " yes, life has changed dramatically - get help here"

Mental health issues are often brought on by huge life changes eg moving house or a new job. I can’t imagine many life changes which aren’t more significant than having children. Yes being pregnant, giving birth, dealing with the physical and mental changes on the body and usually being the primary carer is fucking hard and lots of women struggle and many develop PND and other mental health issues but that doesn’t mean becoming a parents doesn’t effect men. Not talking about mental health is part of toxic masculinity and so this initiative which challenges toxic culture of strong men I think it can only be a positive thing for women.

I do think it should have a different name but don't be so dismissive of mens mental health. Mental health should not be a them Vs us issue.
Mental health difficulties can be triggered by a multitude of difficulties including significant life changes such as having a child - not the same as hormonal based changes following actual child birth but still mental health difficulties.

I had PND and men cannot claim to be suffering from the same illness, my GP told me mine was caused by the hormonal changes after having the baby. Men do not have the same female hormones. I was so angry watching the fathers talking about their issues, the father of my children had a lot to put up with helping me with the illness and even went to the GP to see if he could do anything to help me, he was told just to be there. He told me it helped him talking to the GP. I get it some fathers might find it difficult adjusting after the baby arrives but it is NOT PND.