Dads get PND apparently

its exactly reactions like this that discourage men from coming forward with mental health conditions! no they don't experience hormones but that doesn't mean mens feelings are any less important than womens ffs No! It is the acquisition of existing terms to explain a totally different mental health issue that makes it hard to talk about it.

Had the man/article talked about a male form of pnd, a similar issue as PND, like PPD as suggested up thread, then nobody would have batted an eyelid. But he didn't! He said "Why can't I have PND, men suffer too you know?" And yes, we know, but as a matter of biology, they often suffer differently. And women would like that to be acknoweldged.

If men like this could see beyond their own belly button and stop appropriating women's health issues and accurately describe and discuss their own, they'd get a lot further! PPD would have been entirely accurate and supported by all posters here, I would guess!

I think a new term should be used to differentiate between the women giving birth and the parent not giving birth. It goes without saying that the other parent, male or female btw, could suffer depression at the changes in their lives. It is not the same as the woman giving birth so it needs a different category.

Given that the NHS states clearly that PND can affect both men and women, it is hardly unreasonable that men use the term to describe their experience of depression after the birth of their child. I don't think it is fair to accuse them of appropriating the term when they are simply being consistent with current guidance.

Will some men abuse it? Possibly. Is a different, distinct term needed? Probably. But I don't think that is the responsibility of individual fathers who are struggling with their mental health.

The three men I know who have had severe mental health difficulties after the birth of their children attribute it directly to their experience of attending difficult births, their inability to properly help and support their partners when in pain and distress, and the sight of their partners being torn or cut. In one case the husband was expected to look after his wife and newborn after an epidural went seriously wrong and she was discharged by the hospital when in no fit state to do anything for herself or her baby. These are good men who simply went along with current conventions and expectations, which they found overwhelming.
While of course fathers should be able to attend the birth if they and the mothers want them to, the expectation that every father should do so may be more damaging to their relationships with their partners and children than is generally thought.

I know of 2 men in my family who have had mental health wobbles after their babies were born. It must actually be quite common. I think if men are organising to support each other at these times and not expecting to be included in women’s resources that’s great. I may have heard of similar relating to miscarriage/baby loss and the way it affects men/non pregnant partner.

When I had my children I did still feel a sense of making sure everyone else was ok and adjusting to the new arrival, including dh and older kids. Hard when you’re tired and breastfeeding constantly. It would be nice to know there was specific support out there if dh was struggling.

This is a charity scam. There's no need to lie about the cause, co-opt a woman's disorder, then beg for money if you aren't a con artist.

Interesting i'd never seen this as problematic but I can now see the issue with the terms PND or AND for men. However regardless of that, men can and do experience terrible mental health issues after becoming fathers (could be linked to trauma/bad childhood experiences/huge change and feeling unable to cope) and I don't think it's right to dismiss that as they need support too. So whilst I can see the issue with the terminology it's sad to see such cruel comments on this board.

Mental health issues in men are a huge issue as men are often unable to deal with it and don't have the same support networks or ability to be open and vulnerable as women. Men's emotional repression is just as much of an issue caused by the patriarchy and all the bull shit gender stereotypes.

My DH struggled after the birth of our first, didn't think he was a good Dad, he got through it but it was hard. I was lucky anticipated PND as under a lot of pressure but didn't. I don't think any less of him because of this

Post paternal depression?

It's not though. They are still fathers, so it isn't post paternal. It really is post birth, even though they didn't give birth.

That's not to say another term might not be useful. Maybe PPND, add paternal at the beginning.

But the dismissal of men's experience of new fatherhood on here is pretty shocking, IMO. The change in identity is often the most difficult thing for men and women both. It's not just a matter of being whiney any more than it is for women.

I don’t agree with the use of the PND tag but men can struggle with MH after a baby is born! Being a mum doesn’t mean that we have dibs on everything, it feels like men just aren’t allowed to feel out of their depth because ‘it hasn’t happened to them’. Yes some will be total shits because they think it gets them out of doing anything to help. But men can still be depressed, I get objecting to the terms used but to totally override a blokes feelings is possibly why they don’t say anything. My brother struggled massively after the birth of his first...why? Because his DW refused to let him do anything and he was desperate to get involved and do his share. Fast forward a few years and he was told she only wanted the two DD’s they had and didn’t need him! It’s not always about us. Sometimes men actually want to and do struggle with the changes that baby brings. They haven’t had the nesting feelings or feel the kicking, they are just expected to get on with it when baby arrives and if they do struggle they are labelled lazy when they haven’t had to do a thing.

Judging by the way some MN posters see men with depression as being basically untouchable, this should be just delightful for abusers.

Now they can snap at you, do nothing around the house, complain about the baby, and cry about the lack of sex while you recover, do all the baby things, and try to sleep for an hour every now and again. And if you say anything back to them, or give them an ultimatum about their participation in parenting, you'll be abusing a poor depressed man who simply cannot get out of bed in the morning and must spend 6 hours a day on video games to relieve his depression.

It's coming.

It's very hard for them, lack of sex and having to face up to responsibilities. Poor lambs.

@Gwynfluff It’s oxytocin and dopamine primarily. I haven’t claimed men suffer the precise same condition as PND, in fact it was I that suggested calling it Post Paternal Depression which I note you concurred with me on.

My original post wasn’t aimed at you, it was merely in rebuttal towards those who claimed there were no hormonal effects men whatsoever, when clearly there are. Another position we are in agreement on I note.

I make no claim one way or the other in terms of what men/women experience relative to one another when their endocrine system malfunctions simply because it’s impossible for one person to experience both, I would have thought that was obvious. Although it’s also just as obvious a man cannot die or sustain severe injury through the birth process either so of course women have it objectively worse and ill state it here because I am genuinely questioning if I have failed utterly to get across what I meant.

I’m also not interested in getting my grubby little mitts on women’s precious PND health resources whatsoever. As I said I saw a friend go through proper full blown psychosis, it was not pretty and a great many of our social circle totally abandoned her (both men and women), that left me a little disgusted and with an intense appreciation and compassion for those afflicted by it. You are absolutely bang on when you talk about the societal pressures women are put under.

My response to you specifically was really in agreement that this should not be an excuse for fathers to shirk their responsibilities, and reinforcing that by saying I think it’s more likely to afflict involved dads than those who are not (I mean in terms of hormonal effects). In terms of accusations of NAMALT and whataboutery, I am confused where you have gotten that from, or perhaps it is actually me that has the problem understanding nuance. One would think if there was a possibility that there was a hitherto undiagnosed condition that plays havoc with men’s hormones it would be of incalculable value to mothers and fathers both as I imagine it is no picnic for women stuck with partners gripped in the throes of it when everyone is trying to adjust to a new baby.

If I have misread as hostility to what I have previously written I apologise, but if I have not I suspect your next worry is not wanting to give deadbeat dads and crappy partners an easy out by blaming hormones for bad behaviour. To which I’d say I don’t think the two are necessarily mutually exclusive. Terrible men can exist alongside those struggling with mental health issues, and I would be very keen to see the latter category researched, treated and supported to mitigate further catastrophe in families, and don’t worry I am not expecting feminists to do any of the work I’m perfectly capable of advocating for it myself.

Natal means birth, while most men become parents through their partner giving birth they themselves don’t give birth.

Men are more likely to experience depression after becoming a parent if their partner has PND, so better recognition of PND and care would surely reduce the likelihood of Dads of young babies developing poor mental health.

Men's hormones also change after birth.

There is a steep drop of testosterone. This helps bonding.

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/09/170905145535.htm

What else would they call it?

I'm not really surprised to see this kind of wording, given that PND is used fairly broadly in new mothers too - not just when they are suffering from mainly hormone related issues and certainly not to only refer to psychosis - in fact that latter in my experience has been referred to as PPP.

Men seeking help and support with mental health issues is never a bad thing. This is where I feel the fwr board veers into plain demonising of men. Men can feel just as shit as women do. To judge and laugh at make mental illness makes us the toxic masculinity we claim to want to get rid of.

If a man feels depressed, he feels depressed. He doesn't have to have to prove his claim to mental illness any more than a woman does.

Anything that encourages people (male or female) to get help with mental illness is a good thing IMO.

men commit suicide than women, anything that promotes men to open

Agree but I’d be interested in the research as I’m sure some men would run a mile rather than be considered to have a condition commonly associated with women.

I linked the hormonal changes men experience hinge on them being actively engaged with caring for a baby

I don’t doubt that there is a hormonal response and close care of a baby will induce oxytocin and I’m sure cortisol. But I promise you it is absolutely nothing like the hormonal fluctuations the birthing mother undergoes on top of a huge physical ordeal.

The psychosis referred to is a very specific postnatal condition caused by the huge hormonal changes that occur to females who have given birth.

Also, the feminism board is the one place I feel very justified in saying please don’t undermine an argument with NAMALT or whataboutery. I’m quite capable of nuanced thought - but I made an argument that structurally mostly women do the emotional labour and take on the caring roles in families. I’ll go and find the stats and papers if you really want me to.

Just say fatherhood’s a huge lifestyle change and can impact on mental health and new fathers might want some support to adjust. And some might even get depressed. Fine but it’s distinct from PND. Why get in on resources aimed at women who often feel this tremendous guilt that they feel so bad or fear if they tell anyone, someone might remove their child. I’ve seen many posts over the years and contributed to many in which we’ve supported women to get help.

Surely given that more men commit suicide than women, anything that promotes men to open up about mental health is to be applauded? I experienced PND after childbirth that took me a long time to recover from, with medical support.

I also believe my partner at the time experienced depression too as a result of the life changes going on. I have no issue with it being called PND if it helps men open up and be aware that having a child can have a detrimental affect on mental health.

Sorry I posted too soon, I wanted to add: albeit not in the exact same way.

@Gwynfluff if you check the NYPost I linked the hormonal changes men experience hinge on them being actively engaged with caring for a baby, so I don’t think us men using it as an excuse tracks at all. You’d have to want to and follow through with providing consistent care.

In my case I only experienced the positive effects, when I cared for my son. I enjoyed doing it and sought to do it at every opportunity. However I don’t think it’s impossible to see if something goes wrong with the endocrine system it might produce negative effects, same as happens with women.