Stats on attack on women by men self identifying as women?

[quote KingFredsTache]@jj1968 what do you class as a 'transwoman' for the purposes of this discussion please? Do you think there are criteria that someone should meet to gain 'trans status'? Or is it just their declaration that they are a woman?[/quote]
I'd be happy with the definition in the Equality Act I think.

But trans people currently have the legal rights in most cases to use spaces inline with their aquired gender, and most polling shows people, including women, are broadly supportive of that

I genuinely and seriously question that. Most women still have no clue about modern trans ideology and all it implies.

Only if the poll doesn't ask specific questions.
Totally different results when questions are specific. Any person would agree that anyone has the right to identify as they wish but same people don't think people with penises should have the right to share communal changing rooms, showers and accommodation with women.

But trans people currently have the legal rights in most cases to use spaces inline with their aquired gender, and most polling shows people, including women, are broadly supportive of that. If you want to force trans people into third spaces by all means campaign for it, but I think most trans people are pretty happy with the Equality Act the way things are

Perhaps this should have been thought about before campaigning for self ID, while simultaneously chanting TWAW.

@334bu Single sex exemptions are in the EA primarily because male humans have always presented a danger to females of the species.

No they really aren't. The exemptions apply across all protected characteristics in recognition of the fact that in very limited circumstances discrimination can be a proportionate means of meeting a legitimate aim. The exemptions apply to men just as much as they apply to women. Any strengthening of the exemptions would make it easier for men to discriminate against women.

Given the epidemic of male violence women are facing across the globe, is this really an area that merits such attention. How many male medical staff have sexually assaulted someone in that time, or male prison officers, or cops, or teachers? Or male toilet or changing room attendants

Whilst true, the solution is not to just to admit even more males into women's and girls spaces. There a good number of transwomen for whom passing as a woman is a sexual thrill, or for whom there are fetishes around female spaces and icons. Women do not need or want this thank you. Make your own arrangements, and campaign for them

@jj1968 what do you class as a 'transwoman' for the purposes of this discussion please? Do you think there are criteria that someone should meet to gain 'trans status'? Or is it just their declaration that they are a woman?

The chance of ever being assaulted by a trans women in a women's spaces is microscopically low

No,Ii really don't thin k the risks of a lightning strike are comparable...and besides it is not just , or even primarily, about 'physical attacks', but about the instinctive and felt need for privacy, comfort and dignity...which the vast majority of women recognise; and which was the original basis for single sex spaces in the first instance.

How anyone could claim to be a woman and not recognise this is beyond me.

Single sex exemptions are in the EA primarily because male humans have always presented a danger to females of the species. Transwomen are male so they should be excluded from spaces where women might be in danger in the presence of any male. To posit that these exemptions could be used to exclude women from work is total nonsense as these exemptions can only be used to protect the safety, dignity of privacy of an individual .

Why don't you campaign for this thing you have no chance of acheiving and which will only increase hatred towards you (and you don't particularly want anyway) isn't really the gotcha you think it is

So you openly admit to hatred of women who want to retain their own sex based integrity and needs for comfort and dignity that go with that; and yet you also think that you should be welcome in women only spaces with this kind of attitude: one that displays total disdain and disregard. Yeh, right!

[quote SetYourselfOnFire]On the original topic, I just came across this collection if OP is interested. Not stats but incident reports about unisex spaces or men dressed as women in women's spaces. Also a section on voyeurism/cameras.

womanmeanssomething.com/violencedatabase/[/quote]
I just looked through this. Only three people who were convicted of an offence on that list are trans women, despite it covering a period of ten years and being an attempt at logging all reported incidents in women's spaces in the US, UK and Canada, a population representing over 200 million women. The chance of ever being assaulted by a trans women in a women's spaces is microscopically low. Ten times more people are killed by lightening each year in the US alone then the number of people whove been assaulted by a trans women in a woman's space over a decade. Given the epidemic of male violence women are facing across the globe, is this really an area that merits such attention. How many male medical staff have sexually assaulted someone in that time, or male prison officers, or cops, or teachers? Or male toilet or changing room attendants?

I fully appreciate (although may not agree) there are other arguments about comfort, safety, policing the boundaries of women etc, but to claim that trans women in women's spaces represents a threat when the chance of ever being assaulted by a trans women in a womens space is probably something like a few hundred million to one just doesn't seem proportionate to me. And when this debate was had in public, and the evidence fully laid out, the American public didn't buy it either which is why campaigns to exclude trans women from women's spaces on safety grounds failed in every state they were attempted.

If you want third spaces then why aren't you lobbying businesses and other institutions to provide them instead of blaming trans people

Third spaces are the obvious solution, and there is already a campaign by trans people for them ( See MirandaYardley & Fionne Orlander): www.change.org/p/boris-johnson-a-plea-for-third-spaces-for-transgender-men-and-women?recruiter=33562312&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink&utm_campaign=share_petition

It really should not be up to one group to campaign for services and spaces that would be designated for another group; unless that group happens to be below the age ( outside the range) of adult responsibility.

campaign for this thing you have no chance of acheiving and which will only increase hatred towards you

Funny, I'm pretty sure that is exactly the sort of thing that women who wanted the vote were told...it didn't stop them.

And the idea that the only choice trans people should be given is to campaign for and win third spaces and if that doesn't work tough shit you have to use the mens with all the risk that entails doesn't seem very reasonable..

But a total end to women's single sex spaces is reasonable to you then?

Why don't you campaign for this thing you have no chance of acheiving and which will only increase hatred towards you (and you don't particularly want anyway) isn't really the gotcha you think it is. And the idea that the only choice trans people should be given is to campaign for and win third spaces and if that doesn't work tough shit you have to use the mens with all the risk that entails doesn't seem very reasonable..

Young people don't seem to care about all this stuff. Times are changing.

The 4 young people currently living in my house certainly do. They range in age from 9yrs - 20yrs old.

My daughters care very much about not having males in what should be single-sex spaces. The 9yr-old is of an age where the boys and girls in her class are segregated by sex when they get changed for PE and swimming.

My sons also believe that that there should be no males in spaces designed for females. Despite being classed as "vulnerable" themselves, neither would want to use any facilities that are designated for women-only. They also have enough empathy to understand that girls and women would be uncomfortable or even afraid if they (my sons) entered such a space. If they (as young men with autism) can understand this, I'm not sure why other males find this concept so difficult.

ASatisfyingThump

Exactly!!

If you want third spaces then why aren't you lobbying businesses and other institutions to provide them instead of blaming trans people?

The bigger question is why aren't the TRAs? Instead of demanding access to women's spaces, why aren't they campaigning for their own?

" possession or not of a GRC.......is unlikely to be a deciding factor"

The deciding factor will be the fact that they are male and therefore cannot claim discrimination when excluded from a female only space, as all other males are similarly excluded.

the protection from gender reassignment discrimination applies to all trans people

Exclusion from single-sex provisions happens on the basis of sex. It is not gender reassignment discrimination to exclude a person who has that protected characteristic from a single-sex space on the basis of their legal sex or on the basis of their biological sex.

As for the example you described of a religious employer not employing a gay person, I refer you to Part 9, Schedule 1, Paragraph 2 of the Equality Act which sets out under which circumstances this is lawful.

jj1968 Just to be clear, do you not believe that women are entitled to single sex spaces anywhere then?

[quote jj1968]@KingFredsTache
Also, thinking about non-binary people, such as Travis Alabanza. Travis is a very obvious male who essentially appears to have an eccentric dress sense, but believe that he should be able to use female changing rooms if he wants to, because if his trans status. Where does he stand?

Travis believed that they were entitled to use the changing room of their choice because that was Topshop's stated policy at the time. It's really unfair to blame individual trans people who are simply following the law as they understand it or asking why a business isn;t upholding their policies. If you don't like the law, or don't like what Topshop have done with their changing rooms you should blame the Government or Topshop, not pick on individuals. It was disgraceful the way some people treated Travis.

But also an interesting case to bring up because I remember seeing it discussed on here, along with horrifying portents of doom that Topshop changing rooms would now be full of predatory men, that the shops would become defacto no go zones for women, that huge numbers of girls were going to be assaulted and that customers would abandon the stores in droves.

None of those things happened did they.

And I suspect the reason Topshop adopted that policy is because they focus tested their customers, found a growing trend for more diverse gender expressions and didn't want to alienate the trans, non binary and gender nonconforming customers and their friends who make up a large part of their customer base, Young people don't seem to care about all this stuff. Times are changing.[/quote]
Here's an idea, a little radical, but bear with me.

How about people like Travis Alabanza stop and think to themselves - 'hmmm, Im a rather strapping adult male bodied person. I wonder if the teenage girls shopping in Topshop are actually comfortable with me in the same changing room as them? I know that male violence is a thing, I know that women are, often for good reason, uncomfortable with males in their vulnerable spaces and I am very obviously male. I would hate to make anyone feel uncomfortable, so I think that I am going to stick with the changing rooms that are meant for my sex, like other males are expected to do'.

Ya know, instead of thinking 'me me me me, what about me, what about what suits me, what about what I want to do on any given day, I'm a male and I'm going to tantrum on Twitter if I can't enter the ladies changing rooms because I should be able to go wherever the fuck I feel like'.

Just a thought, like.....

By the way, I think people 'picked on' Travis because he was the one who went crying to Twitter that he was denied access to changing rooms not meant for his sex.

Also, do you think M and S 'focus tested' their customer base before making their changing rooms mixed sex (whilst still labeled male and female)? If oldies who shop in there are such a bunch of bigots and young'uns who shop in Topshop are so forward thinking?

'Young people don't care about this stuff'... Yeah I mean we are in a climate where young girls are now being made to think that discomfort around male bodies when in a vulnerable place is 'bigotry' so I'm not really surprised.

If you want third spaces then why aren't you lobbying businesses and other institutions to provide them instead of blaming trans people?

My activism focuses on the need of female people for female-only legal set asides. Third spaces, which are by definition mixed-sex, do not meet the needs of female people who need female-only spaces. That I would have used them had they existed, does not oblige me to campaign for them.