Stats on attack on women by men self identifying as women?

Just caught up on this thread and wanted to post my admiration for the wonderful posts here counteracting the lies and mistruths. I won't mention names as I don't want to miss anyone out but be assured that every time I opened my mouth reading this thread to say something like "well that's bollocks" you all managed to say it in a much more articulate way.

Threatening behaviour does not just mean physical or sexual assault, for women it also means every kind of 'peeping tom' type activity or behaviour; it means flashing ( self exposure); it means inappropriate conversation or personal questions; it means having your personal space/boundaries knowingly invaded.

There was a thread on this forum once in which women who worked on telephone helplines, including the samaritans reported and recounted the many multiples of occasions in which they were subject to sexualised, threatening, 'heavy breathing' phone calls from men. My own son works on a telephone helpline for a housing association, and he tells me that the women on the team often experience this kind of thing.

Single sex spaces and services give women a much needed break from all of this, and offer them protection in intimate situations.

I know you all don't like Stonewall much so I didn't want to use their research, although I'm not sure they've done any on sexual assaults specifically.

Scientists don’t assess research on the basis of whether or not they like the people who did it! They assess its methodology, reliability, reproducibility etc. True, the researcher’s reputation for honesty and accuracy would obviously carry some weight.

Predators are good at sniffing out the vulnerable. There are lots of ways to be vulnerable. Identifying as trans would be one of those ways. Nobody is denying that.

Women's spaces are not generalised vulnerable people spaces.

The man who identifies as trans could be having the most awful time, predated by the worst kind of men at every turn. That would be awful. It still would not mean women have to take him in as if he were a biological female.

One thing does not follow the other, except for sexist people who see women as support humans such that man in pain obviously leads to women give him what he wants

gender ambiguity may actually attract predatory men, possibly because they think trans people won't be believed, or won't report it, or as I mentioned earlier see them as a sexualised subclass to whom the normal rules of behaviour don't apply.

Or these might be very troubled young people who are poor at assessing risk and put themselves in dangerous situations... such as obvious young women using male spaces.

I came on this thread yesterday, saw it was being derailed, and thought I would wait until it got back on track. Came on again just now 24 hours later, and looks like the derailing didn't stop in all that time. Wow. Just fucking wow.

Woman.

It's pretty simple. No need for any further elaborations, bolt-on prefixes or qualifiers.

Woman. Women.

Look there's obviously a word I would use in it's place because non trans is ridiculously clunky but I'm not sure it's allowed on here and I realise even if it is it may cause offence.

That word would be woman.

I said way, way back that this thread has the most words I've seen to basically say "fuck women and girls, men are more important" Whilst I agree you are saying things in a respectful way, I do not think you are saying respectful things. You have no care for anything other than the agenda you are pushing which says a lot more about you than the wonderful women here who have had the patience to continue responding to you.

Equally I dont feel comfortable using transwomen or transman as a means to differentiate

I suggest you might find some liberation in acknowledging that there is a differentiation, rather than in denying it, or pretending it does not exist. Transwomen sich as Miranda Yardley, and others, have no such issue, and they are actually far more sympathetic to the women that they identify with than you could ever be.

Transwomen, by definition, are different and discrete to women. Not the same at all.

I'm not complainig abot the language used by anyone else, can we not at least agree that it's okay to discuss in the ways we personally consider respectful (and within the rules of the site of course)

No! You have knowingly come onto a women's rights board, populated by women who have often spent life times involved in women's issues as well, as in many other justice movements. You don't get to impose your own version of reality and have it not challenged at every turn.

would any of us stand any chance on a trans forum, or even on most forms of social media just outlining our experience of reality and our own view? The answer is no.

So count yourself privileged that so many good and intelligent women have been generous enough to entertain your numerous long posts - which in many parts go against every grain in our being. In between family responsibilities, preparing and cooking dinner and looking after the general well being of others.

Woman is allowed on here. And man.

but it's impossible to say when for sure when no-one knows with any real certainty how many trans women there are in the uK

That's right; and with Self Id it would be a totally movable feast.

‘Pretty much every trans women I know has been a victim of sexual violence or harassment‘

Every women I know has been a victim of sexual violence or harassment many times over, and usually starting from puberty, which can be as young as 10 (it was in my case). Hence why I feel so strongly that women and girls need single-sex spaces.

Also I take exception to your referencing of women as being 'non trans'...as if being 'trans' is the primary state. it isn't!

I suspect that trans women are probably murdered at around the same rate as non trans women

Most transwomen murders occur in places such as South America, and in communities in which there is also much homophobia. Most transwomen deaths occur amongst those working in prostitution; a notoriously dangerous occupation for anyone involved.

Did you now that 50,000 women have been murdered in Mexico alone in the last twenty years? The stats and comparisons just don't bear any resemblance. Women are murdered every day and every week in the U.K. your stats bear no resemblance to truth; and even if they did that does not make for a sound argument for the invasion and colonisation of women's spaces.

@334bu The CNN piece includes comparators for non trans students who have been assaulted in the last year

The rates of sexual assault for nontrans US teens, those whose gender identity matches their sex assigned at birth, is 15% for girls and 4% for boys, according to the Youth Risk Behavior Surveillance Survey administered by the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

This is similar to rates of sexual assault reported by Rape Crisis: In the year to the end of March 2017, the Crime Survey for England and Wales (CSEW) estimated:

20% of women and 4% of men have experienced some type of sexual assault since the age of 16, equivalent to 3.4 million female and 631,000 male victims.  <a class="break-all" href="https://rapecrisis.org.uk/get-informed/about-sexual-violence/statistics-sexual-violence/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">rapecrisis.org.uk/get-informed/about-sexual-violence/statistics-sexual-violence/</a>

I don't really want to get bogged down with this. It's not a competition. But I hope people can recognise that these figures show that trans people are at risk of sexual violence, significantly more at risk than non trans men are for example, who in terms of sexual violence at least are actually very much the safest demographic.

*I'm sorry but this is unfair, this is not at all what I said. I never said it shouldn't be talked about, but that the way it is talked about is important. I hope there aren't many people on here who support the way the likes of Tommy Robinson and Britain First talk about grooming gangs for example8

What on earth are you talking about? Many women here are life time activists, predominantly on the left.Campaign for your own spaces, and there would be little issue........Apart from, of course, the medicalisation of childhood gender non conformity.

I agree with ArabellaScott here. We are debating a specific UK law and statistics about the safety of people who identify as trans under very different legal circumstances in the US is irrelevant in this context.

For instance, the experience the trans students had in that study is far less likely to happen in the UK precisely because UK law means schools cannot force pupils who identify as trans to use the facilities provided for their own sex. But this is legal in some US states.

However, if you consult the EHRC Technical Guidance for Schools, you will find that they state explicitly that such students must not be forced to use the facilities provided for their own sex because that would be unlawful discrimination on the basis of gender reassignment. They must be offered alternative solutions instead. (Such as the use of facilities provided for teachers.)

This isn't an arbitrary limitation by any means, that we pick and choose as we please. The judgement which evidence is relevant depends on the precise argument you are making in support of your position.

So when your argument is a general one, like your claim that as a group, males who identify as trans are not as dangerous as the male sex class as a whole, then evidence to the contrary (or in support of your argument) does not have to be localised to the UK.

But when you are arguing that applying a specific UK law the way we say it works will increase risk to those who identify as trans, then any evidence for or against does have to be relevant to the UK.

@ArabellaScott Yes I've heard of the people you mention. I believe the represent the exception rather than the rule, and certainly Debbie has only just started using men's toilets, if she actually does anywhere but Woman's Place meetings. But it's really very unusual, I very much doubt enough trans women have used men's spaces to even be able to generate any meaningful statistics.

I appreciate the situation is not exactly the same in the US, but when it comes to sexual violence then I think those statistics have relevance. Pretty much every trans women I know has been a victim of sexual violence or harassment. And I know you all don't like Stonewall much so I didn't want to use their research, although I'm not sure they've done any on sexual assaults specifically.

I don't think you can say anything at all about the rate of violence or sexual violence towards trans women from the murder statistics. The data is far too noisy. I suspect that trans women are probably murdered at around the same rate as non trans women but it's impossible to say when for sure when no-one knows with any real certainty how many trans women there are in the uK.

I'm sorry I know I said that I was finished but I can't let this pass

" higher than reported cased of non trans men and women."
As most sexual assaults on women are not reported this is a very easy statistic to brandish and yet every woman knows that the number of women who at the very least have been groped by a total stranger is much closer to 100%. I personally have been groped multiple times, been flashed at and masturbated at. The only assault reported to the police was because I was followed home and at that the first question was "What were you wearing?
So only half have experienced a sexual assault at some time during their life, if that is the case then they are indeed a far safer demographic than women.

Have you not heard of Miranda Yardley and Fionne Orlander, Debbie Hayton, etc?

Lots of transwomen use male spaces, without any incident that I've heard of. Although there is this campaign, maybe you could get behind it?

mirandayardley.com/en/a-plea-for-third-spaces-for-transmen-and-transwomen/

The US is a completely different country; I believe trans people there have pretty dreadful discrimination to contend with in legal terms, and I don't think the comparisons work very well.

If you're stuck for stats, let me help you out:

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-trans-people-murdered-uk

'in the UK at least, a trans person is less likely to be murdered than the average person.'

Also: 'The Office for National Statistics say they are working on creating a standard process for recording violence against trans people.' - that'll be interesting to see.