Laverne Cox on Brene Brown's podcast

This is very depressing. I have gained much from Brene’s books at a time I was really searching for something to help me. They really struck a chord. I’m not saying they’re perfect, but there is a lot of good there. But this is really frustrating. I’m not going to buy any more of her work if this is indicative of her stance.

Sorry to see that it is still down. Crazy that women can’t have a website to discuss and collect their feelings anymore. She has her email address there though.

Oh dear...

No I haven't, I'll check the website out.

Maybe she was just starstruck?

Sorry that happened to you in the loo - your situation is a reality for many of is these days.

Have you shared it with noconflicttheysaid.org yet?

I wonder if brene has changed her tune since her early books? While they were about vulnerability, they were heavily about boundaries and only being vulnerable with the right, trusted people. I found some of her discussion on this very helpful for my young daughter to give her some tangeable guidelines on how not to be a pushover.
I've always felt Brene was one of the more grounded self help type people.

It's very disappointing to hear about this interview. We should now ignore our boundaries and instincts? The ones many of us have been socialized to overrule and have had to work hard to put back in place.

I've been in a very scary situation when a drunk man came into a mixed sex loo when I was on my own in there. The fear was very much real and justified. Of course fear is more than just a feeling!

XX

Not ‘cis’ so no reflection required.XX

I tossed her books after this. It was gross to hear her shill for pillows (or was it a sheet set?) and then pretty much go ga ga over a celebrity. We need reality based people in her field, done with the woo woo types.

You know what else I'm getting fucking sick of? Women with a public profile, like Brene, who bang on ENDLESSLY about their kids and / or their menopause (i.e. their experiences of female biology), joining in with the 'sex is not real' or 'sex is a spectrum' bandwagon for woke points? You cant have it both ways, you FUCKING idiots! Stop pretending to be so bloody stupid and stop throwing other women under the bus, and cherry picking which bits of womanhood are real or not. Just get a grip on reality and show some respect for yourselves and for other women. How dare you

Very good post Lotta.

women need to remember that 'fear is not real, it's just a feeling'. Nice ^and women need to remember that 'fear is not real, it's just a feeling'. Nice 🙄 then Laverne adds that 'ciswomen' need to carry out some 'self reflection' about why we're so het up about TW popping into women's toilets for a little old wee or whatever. Like, how does it affect us, really? And 'where is the love?'^

Love isn't real, it's just a feeling. Gender identity isn't real, it's just a feeling. Why do your feelings matter Laverne, and ours don't? Hmmmm.

^When they say feelings aren't real, what they mean is 'men's feelings are real and important but women are only allowed feelings when it doesn't inconvenience anyone else.'^

This. They care more about the feelings of a gangster who burned a 13 year old black girl to death in a racial hate crime after raping her, than us. (Laverne only removed support after learning it was ALSO a racist attack.)

Reading your summary was bad enough.

You took one for the team there OP.

Fear is a feeling is it? So you can 'get over' a feeling?

So if a male has a 'feeling' that he was born in the wrong body and has a 'feeling' that he should be a female, then surely they can sort it out and get over it!

Fear is a feeling, and feelings aren't real, but when a man says I feel like a woman, that's completely real and "valid"? Okay... Not forgetting that males who feel they are women also claim to feel too afraid to use the men's loos - I guess that fear isn't real either?

For sure. Which boils down to the fact that people's feelings matter, apart from the women who won't toe the line. Their feelings don't matter at all and they should put up and shut up.

‘Fear is a feeling’.

Fear is what keeps us alive as women. That fear is exactly what we are required to nurture and listen to...it protects us. It is shameful that a woman with a social work background would minimise a women’s instincts.

I've read Brene Brown, and I have to say I don't really agree with her fundamental premise about shame, fear and vulnerability.

My take on it is that if you feel a sense of shame or vulnerability about a situation, it's probably a good idea to ask yourself why you feel it - - because there will be a reason and it might be a damn good one. I have a problem with people that exort others to ignore the messages their subconscious and instinct are giving them.

I also think Brown doesn't address how the dynamics of society or community work, and why people may find themselves in certain situations.

But then I'm probably biased because I know someone who publicly raves about Brown and "connection" in terms of tackling his depression. The thing is this person found himself in such a situation because he blew up his somewhat charmed life by pathologically lying about himself and other people in a very malicious fashion in order to achieve professional success - - and he eventually got found out.

Seeing this side of how Brown's work can be abused in order to ignore very valid reasons for feeling shame or fear, I'm not surprised she has no comprehension of why women may not want to find themselves in vulnerable situations with males they do not know.

Fear is a feeling, and feelings aren't real, but when a man says I feel like a woman, that's completely real and "valid"? Okay... Not forgetting that males who feel they are women also claim to feel too afraid to use the men's loos - I guess that fear isn't real either?

When they say feelings aren't real, what they mean is 'men's feelings are real and important but women are only allowed feelings when it doesn't inconvenience anyone else.' Great feminist message there.

It's so depressing when it comes from someone you have deeply respected in the past 😔.
There's a bunch of American women who are all TWAW but also come from a lefty feminist, be kind, be true, be vulnerable, love God etc background. It's brené brown, Glennon Doyle, Cheryl strayed and Elizabeth Gilbert and they all worship the ground Oprah walks on. None of them vary from this position and I think they can't deviate from it because they would be seen as trump supporters. The cognitive dissonance is shocking when they'll say stuff about girls standing up for themselves and taking up space but then budge up for men who call themselves women.
E.g. Glennon Doyle wrote "Many of us say “I feel” because “I know” comes across strongly and we are socialized to comfort, not create discomfort. We want to be liked. We want to be trusted. So we downplay our strengths to avoid threatening anyone and invoking disdain... We temper, qualify, and discount our opinions... We step out of the way... We ask if our ideas make sense instead of assuming they do. We apologize for… everything.” - obviously Glennon is saying women shouldn't be doing this but they are literally asking women to do this when they let Laverne tell them Laverne has a right to be in their bathrooms. They have let millions of American women down.

Fear is not real?

Yes - vulnerability vs boundaries is a balancing act.

It requires sophisticated inter-personal skills.

She (Brown) does have good points to make about men and the societal pressure to always be on-duty, always be the provider at the expense of being available in their family relationships.

Vulnerability does not equal weak.

If being vulnerable opens you up to being preyed upon, then it's not appropriate (e.g. in work setting, relationships with a power imbalance)

Vulnerability in the service of better relationships via increased connection and recognising shared humanity, that is fine.

But, as I said, it's sophisticated high-wire level interpersonal skills.

I've always found Brown's approach dangerous e.g. for people in DV situations or being burnt out by an employer. Telling everyone to open up and show their vulnerabilities. Sadly many of us do not live in a safe, fluffy world where letting someone know your vulnerability is safe, from employers to narc partners, if you are not in the right place there's a reason you hide your vulnerability.