Help - looking for reliable stats on violence against trans people

Channel 4 put this fact-checker out two years ago:

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-trans-people-murdered-uk

It links to some of the stats that are out there.

On the recent transgender day of awareness (I forget the actual date) there was a huge thing about 300 trans people murdered in the last year. That was worldwide.

And are these murders because the person is transgendered? Are the perpetrators known to the transgender person?

I think these are important questions when, in relation to maintaining women only spaces, people make statements like trans people are more at risk than women.
If the murders weren’t because ‘trans’ then making women only spaces mixed sex won’t help the murder (or general male on trans violence) rate.

Also - at what point do you become a transwoman? What is your friend picturing?

I think people hear TWAW and their brain subconsciously categorises as ‘women - non threatening, less violent, smaller, weaker, feminine, needs protection,’ etc without thinking about what real life might look like.

In general men are subject to more violence than women
Ergo all men should be using the ladies ?

My apologies, crunchermuncher. I thought I had RTFT, but I just read your posts again and realised that I had not read this paragraph in your second post properly, so I had misunderstood how the discussion had come about.

And it was me complaining about the issue to him to start with, so I think the onus is on me to provide data. He 'read it somewhere' which I know is a rubbish answer and being a scientist he knows and acknowledges that too, but I'm in the same position of feeling like 'I read it somewhere' (that women are actually more at risk) but can't locate where. We can't all remember the source of every bit of info we've absorbed over our lives and we'd like to actually sit down and examine some data to see where this common belief has come from and whether it's purely Twitter nonsense about 'literal violence', or whether more to it than that.

Is it really important to know whether women are more at risk of violence from men than transgender people? There are many other groups who are also at risk of violence. Do we really need to compile a league table of who is most at risk of violence from men?

If he could prove that transgender people were more likely than women to be the victims of assault, how would this affect women's need for women only spaces? To me, it seems an irrelevance. Just because men are violent to another group doesn't mean that we no longer need women-only spaces, it just means that some other groups might also need protection from violent men.

I don't HAVE to come up with the info - but I'm the one that wants to discuss it. I'm the one that feels strongly that the prevailing perception is incorrect. And as a logical person, it bothers me not to be able to back up my position with robust data

On the recent transgender day of awareness (I forget the actual date) there was a huge thing about 300 trans people murdered in the last year. That was worldwide.
The ONS will have the stats for other murders in the same period in the UK only and it's similar every year. Hovers around the 400 men per year and 220 women per year.

No I know, it just surprised me from that data! I am mega gender critical but I find the race to the bottom of who has it worst quite frustrating
I personally think that in the toilet scenario many men would be more likely to batter a man who is trying to live as a woman, as they would
excuse it as just a fight, not ‘woman beating
And I hate that in this debate I know have to add something like “not to deny the extreme prevalence of male violence against women

Its been the same for some time, men are definitely worse off in the violence department than women, but this is fwr so we discuss fwr stuff. The thing in common with violence against men and women is that men are the biggest perpetrator of said violence. Maybe they should club together and try fixing whatever it is that makes men violent.

In most cases going by anecdotal data, transwomen are "battered" by men for going into the ladies loos. Presumably that neanderthal thing that men have going on.

I hate having to ever so carefully choose my words and having to write around the houses to not get pronouns wrong. The convoluted sentences that we make are terrible to read.

Let us know how you get on, Cruncher? You'll find out whether your friend is open-minded and rational or just one of those confirmation bias seekers who only accept data that fits their existing beliefs!

Ask him to provide evidence of his claim - there isnt any.
There are no reliable statistics on violence based on the sex of the offender or victim, they are recorded by self identified gender not sex.

''Women more likely to have experienced sexual assault
The majority of victims were female, with approximately 560,000 female victims and 140,000 male victims. Women were nearly four times as likely as men to have experienced sexual assault in the last year''
(3.4% compared with 0.9%; Figure 3, CSEW Table 1).
www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/sexualoffendingvictimisationandthepaththroughthecriminaljusticesystem/2018-12-13

The number of female victims has risen dramatically, and these figures were collected before lockdown when they rose again;
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/feb/13/female-homicide-victims-england-wales

In the UK trans people are the group least at risk of murder;
''Fortunately in the UK transgender people are very rarely victims of murder and are at no more risk than the average person living here.''
fairplayforwomen.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/trans-murder-rates4.jpg

fairplayforwomen.com/trans-murder-rates/

If he says he 'doesn't like the source' he is playing you. The source is official statistics; the website is merely reporting them.

Goody’s data was also noted by the police to benefit from many campaigns to increase reporting.

And they still don’t report “crimes” or “non-crime incidents” where the victim/witness thinks the reason was her sex, but will record the crime/non/crime incident where the victim (or anyone with knowledge) thinks it is because the victim was trans.

Here are some hate crime stats for England and Wales (last year though sorry). Although it looks like it has increased hugely over the period covered we would need to compare with the number of people identifying as trans over the same period to make any sense of it. (Table is on page 6)
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/839172/hate-crime-1819-hosb2419.pdf

I do think violence against transpeople exists. There are people in the UK who can be violent to those who are different. For instance Sophie Lancaster’s murder. She was murdered and her boyfriend left unconscious just for dressing differently. Neither were trans. Her murderers have been caught and the social reaction was to the actual issue.

Here are some stats on Hate Crime in Scotland. Problem is that it doesn’t mean much if you don’t know the total population of each group affected, and of course as someone else has pointed out as misogyny isn’t a hate crime it can’t be compared.
www.copfs.gov.uk/media-site-news-from-copfs/1887-hate-crime-in-scotland-2019-20

No, he's not asking me to change my mind, we often debate all kinds of things. We like taking arguments apart and looking at where beliefs come from, including our own, and trying to construct robust arguments for our own beliefs.

So he has attempted to construct a robust argument for his belief that trans people are more at risk than women, and has tried to examine where his belief comes from?

I would use that as the starting point. What it his argument, and why does he believe this?

For example, what evidence has he seen that this is true?
Why did he find this evidence so compelling?
What does he see as the best solution to protect vulnerable males from violent men?
Should women have to compromise their own safety from violent men in order to protect vulnerable men from those same violent men?
etc.

I still don't understand why you're asking people who don't believe something why those who do believe it hold that belief. It's like going onto a site for atheists and asking them about why people believe in God.

*TheReal” has some stats which include transgender people, but not women. Violence against women is t recorded the same way.
In the UK burnout’s suggestion doesn’t seem to be a factor in recent murders?
Sex work, drugs, intimate partner violence do seem to be factors in murders, including those of trans people. The last murder was Naomi Hersi in 2018. The punter who booked Naomi knew he was booking a transwoman and they spent some time together before Naomi’s murder.

I'm sure I read somewhere that quite a bit if the violence towards trans women isn't so much random stranger violence but more by men who have been surprised in a dating context as to the identity of their date.
Which is not to victim blame but it does seem to be asking for trouble, sane as if a gay man attempted to come onto a straight man, he would probably consider the risk of his approach being rebuffed in physical terms if he picked the wrong man. (Again bot victim blaming)

I haven’t seen anyone else link to this:

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/839172/hate-crime-1819-hosb2419.pdf

I’m just off out, so don’t have time to comment on it much at the moment.

So back to the EU 2012 survey. They asked people responding to choose between subgroups and these are the rates of violence:
Transgender 37%
Transsexual (sic) 36%
Woman with transsexual past 36 %
Man with transsexual past 30%
Gender variant 39%
Cross dresser 24%
Queer 38%
Other 30%

Those rates vary quite a lot. That could be because the data isn’t statistically robust, or It could be helpful. Dunno.
Certainly if you look at the two “past” ones, could the 6% include a biological or socialisation difference? Dunno.

Back to the broader point, if there was a correlation between trans and violence, what should the UK do about it?
We do know that testosterone etc in adolescence is correlated to violence, leaving care, leaving the forces ditto. In all cases as victim and perpetrator.

In these cases the UK should take actions, directed at these problems. Changing the law so people are treated as if they weren’t teens, were given new documentation saying they were really raised by their birth family, had an office job hasn’t been considered as solutions.

Transgender people suffering from violence deserve the UK’s help in causation analysis. One of the groups of questions would be about sex work, obviously.

Womwn! I invented my own word. Now, what shall I have it mean?

OP do remember, too, that hate crimes cannot be recorded agaisnt women because we are not covered by that legislation! Nor are men, of course. But all the LGBTQ groups are. So there's no way of comparing because no stats are recorded and no crimes are reported. That means trans people cannot claim to be the subject of 'more' hate crimes or incidents than either womwn or men. No data exists for comparison.

An often quoted stat is that transwomen have a life expectancy of 35. This isn’t correct. In the US in 2018 the average age of transwomen who were murdered was 35. The average age of Women who were murdered was 25-29, so non transwomen are murdered younger!!!