Gender and sex

SheWho, I think that interchangeability arose because of a prim need to avoid saying sex, tbh, because sex obviously also means shagging. That was certainly my experience. Like a parent telling you to say 'pardon?' not 'what?'.

But yes, maybe that last sentence was a tad Grrrr! for a self confessed confused newbie.

I blame the heat. I just shouted at the fucking kettle for adding to the bastard heat.

Since we're doing a 101 course, I always understood gender and sex to be interchangeable growing up. It was one and the same. I've spoken to friends and family about this, and they have the same experience. When did gender become something different to sex? Or was always separate?

I'm still trying to get my head around the whole gender thing too. Trans, agender, gender fluid. How many genders can there really be? It's almost like "there's no word to describe how I feel so I'll create a new gender just for me." I'm being facetious but why is there such a need to label and define and proclaim?

Sorry Floral I wasn't thinking of any particular poster, just the tone of some of them

But yes, maybe that last sentence was a tad Grrrr! for a self confessed confused newbie.

I have started pointing that out in real life too - I am not GC anything. It's as redunant as cis.

Was I fierce, Curious? Just trying to outline some basic stuff that gets lost in the mix sometimes. I'm not a 'GC feminist'. The GC is completely redundant. Feminism challenges gender. There is no feminism that accepts the gender system as a wonderful part of human existence.

Seriously, this is feminism 101. Yep! and some of the posters here are recent graduates.

Don't let the fierce responses put you off! It's part of becoming less confused!

Feminists don't say that gender doesn't exist. We are saying it is not innate. We are saying it is a malleable product of arbitrary cultural conventions and the interplay of those conventions and the assumptions connected to them.

We are saying that as an arbitrary, culturally bound idea, it should not lead to medical malpractice, it should not mean that sex based protections which are based in physical realities and the inequalities that have arisen due to women's oppression should be destroyed, it should not mean that those people with a strong aversion or connection to the 'wrong' cultural conventions or behaviours should need to claim to be something other than the male or female person they are.

This was a perfectly rational and increasingly accept idea a few years ago, and is usually short handed by such ground breaking phrases as 'Girls don't have to like pink' or 'It's not weakness for boys to cry'.

It was my uncomfortable feelings and rejection of gender stereotypes that led me to feminist perspectives. Being unhappy with being treated according to strict gender stereotypes is the springboard to feminism. That's why we say that gender should be questioned.

Not because it doesn't exist. Because it bloody well does, and is a prison humanity has constructed for itself that has huge negative aspects, mostly for women, and should be challenged, not turned into a new religion.

Seriously, this is feminism 101.

I think you may be misunderstand what 'Gender Critical' means.

It doesn't mean 'critical of people who believe in gender identity and/or wish to be perceived as the other sex'.

You say "I do acknowledge that it is unbearable for some people to be expected to behave and be treated as their sex stereotype." It is this set of expectations (i.e., what 'gender' means in Feminism) that 'GC Feminists' are critical of. It sounds like you're critical of it too, and that makes you gender critical.

If you think it would be more progressive to continue the work of our foremothers in challenging and doing away with those sex role stereotypes, than it is to redefine the stereotypes as true, innate 'gender identity' and encourage any young person who isn't comfortable with them to accept that they must not be a 'proper' boy/girl, then [brace yourself] you are not only gender critical, but also a hateful bigot who is responsible for thousands of deaths.

Welcome.

I'm inclined to disagree somewhat with the premise. While some, maybe many, people don't want to be treated like some sterotype of masculinity or femininity, generally, that isn't required. Look around - not in magazines, which have never been representative, but in a busy pub or in a Walmart. Lots of people are just normal, women with shorter hair in jeans and no make up abound. Men with long hair or an earring, though you might be less likely to see one in a skirt or make-up. You'll see women in the army, or men in nursing, without having to look too far.

I don't think anyone desperately needs to wear pink, or a dress, or anything like that, in order to live a validated happy life, and so if people feel that's too far outside social norms for them, I seriously doubt the level of mental distress that causes.

People who make a big deal about not conforming to stereotypes are entrenching those stereotypes.

when you wanna be 'non binary', there should be 'binary'

existing as a gender non-conforming person in a sexist society is pretty huge

I’m not sure it’s as huge as many would like to tell you. I think there’s a certain ‘universe is against me’ mentality that is stirred up by social media.

I think paying ‘gender non-conformists’ less attention rather than more would be the right way to go about it. People who make a big deal about not conforming to stereotypes are entrenching those stereotypes.

I agree with some of what you say OP but I really have an issue with "gender identity" as a recognised class. I'm imagining a teenage boy growing up in a rough inner city council estate. In order to survive (and not get beaten to a pulp) he will imitate the masculine stereotype he sees among the older boys. Is that his "gender identity"? How can it be an identity when he had no choice but to identify with it?

The idea that we create legal categories around what is (for anyone but the very privileged) socially coerced behaviour does not sit right with me. I am comfortable with categories of "sex" and "gender reassignment", I can't get on board with "gender identity".

Sorry for the repeted quotes. I am thinking it through as I type!

the state of existing as a gender non-conforming person in a sexist society is pretty huge for those people but many people live like that! I do, always have done. From my Tom-Boy childhood to my non Barbie adulthood!

I am starting to think sexist stereotypes are so completely ingrained into my community. Yep! That's why women speaking up against them is easily misquoted, mangled and ignored.

It doesn’t mean I like them though. Me either

I am confused. I am becoming less so... it takes a while and can be an infuriating learning experience!

Ah! Welcome in! You seem to be about where I was 3ish years ago!

Like many here I have trans friends/family and wasn't really in board with the GC message and would have made attempts not to show my initial unease when a transwoman entered a single sex. female space.

BUT... non binary gender is a smashing identity to assume. I am a self employed, short haired, non make up wearing, flat shoes, trousers and big boobs. Not gay, happily married to a hetero male for 30+ years. Most of that makes me non binary according to Stonewall! That and I don't assume and identity - I am simply me!

I also don’t really care about post-op transsexuals in women’s spaces, - 90ish% of transwomen have non/very little surgery at all. Mostly breast implants and make up. So most transwomen have a penis! That does make me feel uncomfortable when I am in what I think is a single sex, female, space.

‘anyone can be a boy or a girl’ Horrendous isn't it? "You can be anything you want to be" has been mutilated!

So can I acknowledge both gender identity and female sex as distinct and equally important classes? And am I totally alone in this thinking? No, not at all. It is what most GC women think.

Issues arise when Gender Identity and other such phrases are used in place of the legal characteristics in the Equalities Act 2010. That is why GC women fight the term not the existence of the ideology, thoughts and feelings.

Is how well you conform to outdated stereotypes really an equally important class? They’re certainly trying to make it that way, but I thought feminists weren’t about that sort of nonsense.