Gender and sex

@drspouse, no, actually, never, none of those things!
The fact is, I am NOT abrasive; I'm very soft spoken and have never, ever told anyone off for their behaviour or what they said; I do catch more flies with honey, and work opportunities I lost was because I chose to lose them in order to be with my kids, which was my decision.

But I made up for it in later years by being self-employed in something I truly love, and making money doing so.

I honestly can't remember ever being told I was too argumentative not even from my husband, when we had disagreements. I'm so laid back I'm almost supine! At the most, with my kids, who I do tell off now and again even now they are adults but that's my job! I'm only "abrasive" here on MN because I am so insensed by gender ideology.

And if you think I am not abrasive because I have been conditioned by my family: not true. My mum was a very outspoken and confident 50's feminist (quite famous in my country of origin) who raised me in a far too liberal way. When I wanted to a be a boy, aged ten, she let me change my name on my birth certificate, adding a name that could be a boy's, and I never played with dolls and liked animals and adventures. I was never girly or raised to be so.

But I am also naturally quiet and introspective. I love yoga and meditation and I'm the one in a group who hardly ever speaks. But that's not because of stereotypical gender indoctrination. It's because of my training in meditation, which, in its country of origin, India, is more a man's occupation. I prefer writing to speaking, and generally don't mind being in the background, observing rather than being the life of the party. Very boring for some, I know!

It's not that I deny that there are gender stereotypes; it's just that I believe we CAN look beyond them in our society and not feel oppressed by them, the way these genderists think is happening. Here in the West we CAN dress as we like, and that's been the case for decades.

My speech is also gender fluid in that I adopt the speech generally associated with 'women' or 'men' as I see fit. But generally I try not to dominate or simper (even if both are an option) because I find these hinder communication and I am not a git.

@Lamahaha have you seriously never, ever had anyone comment that you should be "less abrasive" or "don't tell people they are wrong" or "you'll catch more flies with honey" or "I didn't think you really wanted that work opportunity" or "I'm sure he didn't mean it like that, don't be so sensitive" or "girls can't run" or "girls aren't as good at science" or "I guess he just doesn't see dirt" or ANYTHING EVER that suggests that you should behave in a "womanly" way?

If you aren't affected by all the million and one messages about appearance around you - good for you. But being stereotypically "womanly" isn't just about appearance.

Sex can either be a noun (naming biological difference between female and male) or an adjective (having sexual intercourse). The problem linguistically seems to stem from the adjectival use of 'sex' and the adoption of 'gender' to politely distinguish from this.

Over time, sex was used to refer to the act whereas gender was used to name biological reality.

Except that you can't use a socially constructed term that relates to social norms of femininity and masculinity to describe biological reality of sexed difference without causing huge misunderstandings and confusion. Misnaming for whatever weird social reason creates problems of understanding.

It is not surprising that this confusion has been exploited and it is now seen as the norm to use the term gender when really referring to sex.

I recently watched the new Bladerunner film and was disproportionately distracted by official birth data recording 'gender' as female and male. Even if you think sex is ascribed at birth, gender - based on conformity or otherwise to cultural/historical/social norms - can't be. There can be no female or male gender at birth. Sex is male or female, gender TBC.

And if 'trans' is an identity describing a self adopted describer relating to non-conformity with male or female gender stereotypes associated with biological reality, then so too is 'cis' an identity that has equal right to be self adopted.

I identify as adult female human. I choose to be gender fluid in my social presentation regarding clothes, hairstyle etc. And my behaviour will be gender fluid - I may do some cooking or some DIY. I quite fancy driving around on my John Deere lawn tractor with a can of cold beer today. DH can express his fluidity by doing the laundry and cooking tea.

Don't call me 'cis' when this is not my identity and I don't want to be reduced to stereotypes.

I just like to be comfortable rather than stylish and nobody has ever made a negative comment about it.

I recant -- a close friend did once comment on my shoes. It was during my Birkenstock phase, and she told me how ugly they were. And I wear socks with sandals sometimes and once or twice I've heard negative comments about that. But I don't care. Sometimes it's too cold for sandals alone but too hot for shoes and socks. So, sandals with socks are perfect! Scandalous, I know.

drspouse, how I dress just isn't a big deal for me. I dress according to the occasion: formal for a wedding, perhaps, or a swimsuit at the beach, but mostly loose lounge trousers at home.

But even if it is necessary to conform, it doesn't bother me. I go to India regularly and there I conform absolutely. I usually wear a shalwar kameez and a shawl, never bare my upper arms, never a T shirt or anything revealing. I dressed like this when I was a young girl as well, when I was in India. It's called when in Rome etc. I don't let my dress interfere with my "identity" whatever that is. My clothes are not me. I would never wear high heels because I think they are stupid and I have wide feet which just feel comfortable in flats! And I hate the feel of makeup, the feel of jewellery In fact I hate jewellery, never even wore a wedding ring! (Nice to look at though!)

I don't think I've lived a charmed life at all. I've had the normal amount of difficulties to get over. Never been rich, was a hippie, backpacked across continents, etc. I just never paid much attention to fashion.

I do conform to other cultures as a mark of respect. I would cover my head in Muslim countries for example, and did so when I was in Abu Dhabi recently ( went to their new mosque with a friend, the most beautiful building I've ever seen in my life! But you have to wear a headscarf.). I don't feel at all defined by clothes. I just like to be comfortable rather than stylish and nobody has ever made a negative comment about it.

As for ignoring media: yes, I do, absolutely. I don't read magazines or watch TV -- I don't even have a TV and have never bothered with fashion. It's really quite easy to be ignorant of trends! My daughter is similar, though she is more into fashion. Sometimes we wear each other's clothes.

When I was a hippie, my best male friend had hair almost down to his waist, and the guy I had a huge crush on had long black curly hair way beneath his shoulders!

I have heard people say gender doesn't exist. Do they mean it's a construct or that they think it really doesn't exist

I can't speak for everyone, obviously, but there are a lot of different people who are doing the 'gender critical' argument for very differing reasons. Some people believe that traditional gendered expectations are a natural part of human expression and that trans ideology should be stood against because men should be masculine. Some people are part of this for free speech reasons.

Some people probably stand in the same corner as me but haven't really grasped the feminist views as I've explained them. We're all very different. I can only tell you what I understand from reading and experience.

I think it's easy to say there is no such thing as gender, because it's not a tangible, immutable reality. But obviously not everything is tangible or immutable. Feminists don't say gendered ideas don't exist. We say they are not neutral.

These explain how I have come to think about sex and gender - I don't believe in gender identity as a concept, as far as I'm concerned it's as alien a way of looking at the world as a religious one would be.

Here’s the problem with respecting gender identity:

Start with ‘man’ and ‘woman’ as gender identities. What is a ‘man’? Well, they . What is a ‘woman’?

Oh. Well I don’t conform to those stereotypes.

Ok, we’ll create the category ‘non-binary’ for you as you don’t identify with either.

Well sometimes I feel like a man when I’m solving a maths problem but then I feel like a woman when I’m shaving my pits and wearing heels (thanks for the empowerment, Emma).

Ok, we will create the category ‘gender fluid’ for you.

Hmm, well I don’t like being in the middle or switching between the two, what does that even mean? I want to challenge gender.

Ok, you are ‘genderqueer’

I feel like the oppposite gender to my sex.

Ok you are ‘transgender’.

And on and on it goes just like Tumblr until we have 7 billion genders because people are mistaking personality for gender identity.

Most people also think “trans“ means someone who has had a sex change surgery, and that they have effectively changed sex by that surgery,
Someone I know well who has a PhD in a science subject told me this. I pointed out that it isn't possible and they looked flustered and appeared to be only just clicking that this is not a "change of sex".

@Lamahaha I do think you are lucky if you are impervious to these stereotypes. If you can ignore all media showing how women "ought" to appear this is one thing, if you have never had anyone suggest how you ought to dress/present yourself you are very lucky. But if you have family members and colleagues, teachers and schoolmates directly telling you "behave more like this" (when they never tell boys or men this) or "girls aren't good at X" or "it's different for you, you're a girl" - well, all I can say is you have led a charmed life if you have never had this happen!

Even if you have the hide of a rhino (mine is almost there!) and can ignore all these (let's mix our animal metaphors and go with "water off a duck's back" here), they still exist, and not everyone can ignore them, even if their response is irritation rather than compliance.

It’s important to remember for sure that Most people just think gender is a polite Or more “inclusive” euphemism For sex.

The college I teach biology at isn’t incredibly woke (it’s a public school so there are working class folks here as well as wealthier), so I’m often having to correct their papers when they refer to the “gender” of a fruit fly or whatever. Most people also think “trans“ means someone who has had a sex change surgery, and that they have effectively changed sex by that surgery, so that you can’t even tell their original sex anyway.

OP your thinking is sound, though I too would Push back on the idea of a “non-binary identity” being useful. In my view all someone declaring they are NB does is to force everyone else into a Binary box. When I pushed back in this point in training I was told After being looked up and down by the male trainer that I “am pretty gender conforming So NB isn’t about me”. It’s so sexist.

I wonder if you could ask your friends whether using correct and simple language about women’s bodies is important? Maybe you could read Invisible Women together.

Thank you @CuriousaboutSamphire and @FloralBunting

Gender is therefore about society and gender identity is personal feelings based on what society has constructed including stereotypes of how men and women should behave, dress, talk etc

I have heard people say gender doesn't exist. Do they mean it's a construct or that they think it really doesn't exist?

Maybe it's worth starting a thread? Feminism and Trans issues 101: Everything you want know but were too afraid to ask. 😁

I also don’t really care about post-op transsexuals in women’s spaces, 90ish% of transwomen have non/very little surgery at all.

I did think this, but then I read the Swedish study that shows no change of sex-patterned offending rates after SRS.

...as I do acknowledge that it is unbearable for some people to be expected to behave and be treated as their sex stereotype.

I honestly don't get this. Ihave no sense of being expected to "behave and be treated as their sex stereotype". What does this even mean? I have never ever worn high heels, never wear make-up, never bother much with hairdos, ( try to keep my bushy head under control, and that's it!) wear trousers mostly, don't shave underarms or legs etc etc. I'm 68 and it's always been this way, and those, I suppose, are the "stereotypes" referred to. I feel utterly no pressure to do these things, never have. There is nothing unbearable about not following rthe supposed rules. I don't even think about it.
The only thing that identify me as a woman is my biology: I used to have periods, I was pregnant twice and gave birth twice, breastfed both children.

OK, I was, by choice, a stay at home mum for many years, and I guess that's what people call a 50's stereotype. But since that's the exception these days, it can't be counted.

I have a personality, and that's it. I have no idea what a non-binary mind is like. Nobody does, because we can't see into other people's minds.

gender identity is criticized?

Here’s a selection of gender identities taken from Tumblr.

Which of them should be taken seriously?

EA2010 even!

Should any identity be protected then? IS any other self declared identity legally protected? But gender identity is NOT legally protected. That's the point. That is what the TRA obfuscation is all about. Sneaking it in by replacing Sex or Gender Reassignment with Gender Identity

EA201 cararcteristics are:

• age
• disability
• gender reassignment
• marriage and civil partnership
• pregnancy and maternity
• race
• religion or belief
• sex
• sexual orientation

No identities at all!

Since we're doing a 101 course, I always understood gender and sex to be interchangeable growing up. It was one and the same. I've spoken to friends and family about this, and they have the same experience.

I think this is an important point. I agree with the distinction between sex and gender that is normally made on FWR. But let's not forget that most people do not understand that distinction and, in fact, many languages do not have a word for "gender". The use of the same words ("woman", "gender", "trans") to mean completely different things is, I believe, one of the core issues in this debate. Unless we can all agree on these definitions then we are going to be stuck in a perpetual nonsensical argument.

I don’t think I am actually gender critical, as I do acknowledge that it is unbearable for some people to be expected to behave and be treated as their sex stereotype. I expect it is a huge relief to claim you are the opposite gender and then just enjoy living the stereotypes of that sex. In this respect I think non binary gender is a smashing identity to assume.

I have never wanted to behave and be treated as my sex stereotype. Many women don't. I've never felt the need to deny that I'm a woman though. Why should anyone feel the need to deny the reality of their sex in order to be themselves?

Stereotypes and cultural norms can change. Not so long ago it was unacceptable for women to wear trousers or to work after they got married. Now those things are perfectly normal. If all the women who wanted to do those things had declared that they were men or non-binary, the rest of us would still be stuck with only being allowed to do 'womanly' things.

Feminism is about improving the world for all women. A woman declaring she is a man or non-binary is only thinking of herself. And by calling the rest of us 'cis' she is making the assumption that we're all happy with the stereotypes.

why is there such a need to label and define and proclaim? To befuddle, obscure and put peopple on the defensive so some poeple can doa s they please regardles of who they may hurt, it seems!

As for types of gender, 60, 70 and rising, I think!

I always understood gender and sex to be interchangeable growing up. It was one and the same. It has waxed and waned over the years, depending on whether Mary Whitehouse et al were getting heard or not!

But when you say 'sex' you mean the act of having it or you are referring to the biology of a thing. You are never referring to a social construct.

When you say gender you could be referring to the biology or could be referring to the social construct. You are never referring to the act of having sex.

So "sex is biology" and "gender is a social construct" is the clearest way to use the terms, surely!

Well said, Floral. "Gender criticism" has always been integral to feminism.

gender identity as a function of a highly sexist society

Absolutely; it's not an innate, predetermined thing, but a product of one's experience in a sexed body and a sexist world. In that sense, 'transwoman' is a gender identity that males can acquire, 'terf' is a gender identity that females can acquire. Though it would be more accurate to call them gendered identities.