The Times on survey about trans women in female refuges

Why aren't journalists doing their job?

This survey has just been taken on face value. When will someone actually do some research into the research!?

"People who are trans gender have gone through all or part of a process (including thoughts or actions) to change the sex they were described as at birth to the gender they identify with or intend to".

Misleading. If they're going to do surveys like this they need to be upfront about the % of males that DON'T have surgery instead of framing it like all do. Seeing as now they're saying you don't even need dysphoria to be trans, some won't even take hormones at all.

Or better yet, stop treating this like a fucking game and just allow vulnerable women their RIGHT to single sex spaces.

Even seeking the opinions of random women is a bit off. Unless you've been in that situation or had experience as a refuge worker I'm not sure you can imagine how it might feel.

Due to this board I've spent more time thinking about it than the average person but I still have no idea what escaping abuse and having to live in a refuge is actually like.

It should be one of those decisions made by people on the ground and the women who access (or have accessed) the services. Unfortunately most of the orgs have been captured ideologically and the decisions are made by boards for political reasons and not what is in the women's best interests. In some cases it's straight up blackmail because the refuge will be refused central funding if they don't comply with prioritising males.

The rights to single sex recovery for traumatised and raped women isn't conditional upon the opinion of random people.

Plus, another survey, which was far clearer that self identification frequently meant retaining male genitalia, had a completely different outcome.

fairplayforwomen.com/poll/

In all cases the majority of UK respondents consider a self-identifying transwoman who retains their penis to still be a man, and for it to be inappropriate for them to be considered female when it comes to changing rooms, sports, prisons and performing intimate procedures on a woman.

Although almost a fifth (19%) of UK respondents said that a self-identifying transwoman who retains their penis is a woman, a significant number of them did NOT then go on to agree that they should be treated as women in all circumstances (ranging from only 9-14%).

It's completely disingenuous not to make the public aware that stonewall include cross dressers and transvestites under the term transwomen.

Likewise, people like Philip Bunce, who uses male facilities half the week and female, the other half.

I actually find the idea of having an opinion poll on this topic to be wholly inappropriate. It's not up to the general public to give their two pence on whether they're "comfortable with the idea of a trans woman using a woman's refuge". We're talking about people's basic human rights here. I don't really give a shit what Joe Random from Guildford thinks about it.

This article also makes for interesting reading...

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/jk-rowling-publisher-asked-mermaids-trans-group-to-censor-legal-article-on-free-speech-ruling-2dl7t5g9q

I am shocked by the fact that an article reporting the facts of a court case about freedom of speech was deemed to require editing according to the suggestions of a lobby group who use the slogan 'No debate' and repeatedly declare a biological falsehood all of which are intended to silence a group that has been oppressed for centuries. Thank you Ian Yule for resisting and resigning... who will be left to speak up??

As Williams says: 'Pronoun-declaring is, in truth, a game played by an identity-obsessed minority with far too much time on its hands.'

Children who leave school and enter the world of paid employment are not going about stating their pronouns because they have other things to worry about.

Well obviously a very large chunk of that 82 % would be considered bigots if just over half felt uncomfortable with women sharing single spaces. And obviously, they don’t realise that they should be screamed at, cancelled, and re-educated!

“Overall public opinion remains supportive of transgender people, with 82 per cent feeling they were not prejudiced against them”

I wonder how many of those would be considered bigots anyway?

Sorry about previous link. Hopefully this is the correct link?

twitter.com/mforstater/status/1273562476467101699?s=21

Also why ask the general population how they feel about who enters a women's refuge? It's not them who use it. It's traumatised women and children. The qu about acceptable jobs also caused me to raise an eyebrow. I could go on.

I tend to think that this pronoun signaling might go the way of the ‘z’ pronouns. It might be just the enthusiastic that do it and it might just die away in the future. Well... I hope.

A survey was done a little while ago which showed similar results but when asked if transgender without any surgery etc should still be in women's places, the results were very different. 70% ish against.

Survey's are very difficult to interpret especially when you don't know why the poll was done, who requested and what the questions were.

It indicates that we're not a massivily transphobic nation.

Maya Forstater has tweeted about it

twitter.com/mforstater/status/1292919092098334723?s=21

Is this the survey carried out by EHRC? I think there were fundamental flaws in how the survey was carried out.

"Forced attempts at normalising pronoun introductions may be done in the name of inclusivity but they reveal only how hopelessly out of touch those who run our universities, local authorities and political parties have become. They no longer have any idea how normal people talk to each other." From the opinion piece.

I tend to agree with this but I do think that younger people tend to be more accepting of pronoun introductions because it is their "normal" and there are those who don't understand or are not aware of the wider implications and so go along with it.

It shouldn't matter what the general public and men in particular feel about this. What matters is what the vulnerable women in these refuges feel. I doubt many of them would want any men no matter what around them in this supposedly safe space

Were the terms defined in the survey? I'm certain that a not insignificant number of people think that a trans is a woman who is trans ie a transman...

The statistics which are probably impossible to collect but the only ones which really matter are:
1)are women who need refuges 'comfortable' with TW being allowed to use them
2) how many women who need refuges are not using them because of the potential of males being in them?

50% of the population is male. I bet many of them would feel fine about trans women in a women’s refuge, because the men won’t be affected by it.

Also, the very men who are being considered will have a vested interest in supporting it so they will definitely have voted.

As will their supporters.

A lot of women will not know what a refuge looks like or how it feels to be in one.

In fact, the only opinion that really matters on this subject is that of women who are either in, or have experience of being in, a refuge.

50% of the population is male. I bet many of them would feel fine about trans women in a women’s refuge, because the men won’t be affected by it.

I wonder how many women (adult human females) would say the same?

X posts!

Thank you for the tokens. They were both interesting reads.

I wonder if Liz was told she needed to wait for this study to be complete to announce. Is this a study we have already seen the result of?

I would like to know if they also tested what the public believe who is included in that term. I would bet if they knew that it meant anyone regardless of presentation, support would drop significantly.