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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

More places asking me to state my prounouns. WWYD?

182 replies

GennyCrabby · 08/08/2020 09:44

For obvious reasons I don't want to state my pronouns. I have an obviously female name and woman figure and if somebody accidentally "misgendered" me I'd be happy to correct them no hard feelings.

I'm finding in this strange year that more and more places online are asking for prounouns. Anybody else experiencing this? So far it's been a request, and I've been able to just ignore it.

The requests at the beginning of zoom calls are getting more emphatic and less like a choice Hmm. I'm working with different people so it could be that, but my sense is more and more that I'm being one of the fewer and fewer in the call(s) who don't change my name to include my pronouns I stand out more and more as GC. For somebody who is deliberately not "out" it's getting very uncomfortable.

I requested to joined a Facebook group last night. This morning I woke up to an "introduce yourself!" post that instructed (not requested) us to declare our pronouns. I've ignored that bit, but the way it was phrased it's obvious I have ignored it and i wonder if I'm going to be prompted again. If pushed I think I'll go the "my prounouns are sex based" or "oh yeah sure I'm female Smile" route or drop the admin a PM saying I am uncomfortable stating my pronouns and hope they leave it as that.

The second is more delicate, because it's a session for my hobby that I want to go to that is being run by a trans man. I'm very happy to use their preferred pronouns and don't wish in the slightest to do or say anything against them - I am after all despite what many would claim, not transphobic, I wish him peace and he's a big deal in this field, I'd love to learn from him. Equally, I feel strongly enough about my own rights and views that I just don't want to state my pronouns. Help! How on earth would you handle this delicately and with grace?

OP posts:
DidoLamenting · 09/08/2020 01:13

For obvious reasons I don't want to state my pronouns

By this I presume you mean you’re GC and don’t want to out yourself

I'm not particularly gender critical but I wouldn't play along with this either simply because it's ridiculous.

FifteenToes · 09/08/2020 00:29

Thick

FifteenToes · 09/08/2020 00:29

For obvious reasons I don't want to state my pronouns.

Maybe I'm think, but those reasons are not obvious to me. Why is it a problem?

EyesOpening · 09/08/2020 00:19

@LonginesPrime

online you could say that you don't want anyone to treat you differently if they know your sex because you could suffer from sex discrimination whereas at the moment you are protected by them not being aware

Yes, I could say that. However, I don't owe anyone who asks my preferred pronouns any kind of explanation.

The fact I don't want to say should be sufficient for them and if it's not, the onus is on them to do the explaining (and good luck to them!).

I'll be fucked if I'm going to pander to them and make excuses as to why I don't subscribe to their bullshit gender ideology - they're the ones peddling this mad pseudoscience that takes out women as collateral damage so if anyone needs to explain themselves, it's them!

yep! Sorry, I've reread your original post and see now that you want something akin to saying "I don't want to" for online - no/thanks fuck/off something like that?
LonginesPrime · 08/08/2020 23:13

online you could say that you don't want anyone to treat you differently if they know your sex because you could suffer from sex discrimination whereas at the moment you are protected by them not being aware

Yes, I could say that. However, I don't owe anyone who asks my preferred pronouns any kind of explanation.

The fact I don't want to say should be sufficient for them and if it's not, the onus is on them to do the explaining (and good luck to them!).

I'll be fucked if I'm going to pander to them and make excuses as to why I don't subscribe to their bullshit gender ideology - they're the ones peddling this mad pseudoscience that takes out women as collateral damage so if anyone needs to explain themselves, it's them!

SerenityNowwwww · 08/08/2020 21:48

‘I don’t know’ might be an interesting strategy. And then when others try to enlighten you ...

Oh so I like flowers - am I female? But I also enjoy golf - that’s more masculine isn’t it? On the other hand I like whisky - but also babycham... some days I just don’t really know what I feel like - it’s as if I have all these preferences and tastes that just don’t all fit into a nice neat box. Oh my, how does everyone else get to be so darn certain?

Wondersense · 08/08/2020 21:44

Simple - just say you're not ready to talk about your pronouns. Say it's a deeply private and personal matter and they push you say it's insensitive to press.

EyesOpening · 08/08/2020 21:40

@LonginesPrime

In person, I just look them in the eye and say "I don't want to"

I have never had to explain further than that, although I've always been poised to say "I'm not sufficiently comfortable with any to regard them as a preference and I'd appreciate not being railroaded, thank you very much."

I'm not sure how best to do the same online, although I can't imagine people forcing someone to declare pronouns against their will if they've already said they don't want to.

online you could say that you don't want anyone to treat you differently if they know your sex because you could suffer from sex discrimination whereas at the moment you are protected by them not being aware. There are a couple of articles that show women were treated very differently from men when the email recipient thought they were dealing with a woman
TuckMyWin · 08/08/2020 20:51

My work place is increasingly woke, so I'm preparing myself for this. I'm planning to ignore it until pushed, then act confused, and if properly pushed, state that having considered it, I'm not comfortable with the principle due to the risk of unconscious bias and that people are welcome to simply use my name when referring to me. I'm pretty sure they won't argue.

LonginesPrime · 08/08/2020 20:46

In person, I just look them in the eye and say "I don't want to"

I have never had to explain further than that, although I've always been poised to say "I'm not sufficiently comfortable with any to regard them as a preference and I'd appreciate not being railroaded, thank you very much."

I'm not sure how best to do the same online, although I can't imagine people forcing someone to declare pronouns against their will if they've already said they don't want to.

FWRLurker · 08/08/2020 20:24

Option 1: pretend you didn’t hear / forgot / ignore

Option 2 (if directly Pushed on it): “did you know that women identifying themselves As such leads to Gender stereotyping and discrimination and stereotype threat?”

cheeseismydownfall · 08/08/2020 20:19

I haven't been asked yet, but would like to get the point about compelled speech in there, as suggested by PPs.

Perhaps "I no not wish to be compelled to explicitly discuss anything relating to my sex or sexuality. I suggest you use you judgement in deciding how to refer to me."

CharlieParley · 08/08/2020 20:10

^ if anyone objects to you not engaging with this.

CharlieParley · 08/08/2020 20:09

A simple "pass" if it's done at the beginning of a meeting or Zoom call is perfectly acceptable.

I've read a number of articles by transsexuals pointing out that making every one state their pronouns does not necessarily make them feel more comfortable, but just suggests to them that they do not pass if pronouns need to be stated. A number of detransitioners have also written that compulsory pronoun disclosure made them feel uncomfortable.

For both sets, their preferred option was a polite, calm "pass".

So, let everyone else state their pronouns if they so wish, GennyCrabby, and have a polite "I'm not comfortable with this" ready if anyone objects to you engaging with this.

Following which, if you are challenged again, you can send an email politely referring to the Yogyakarta Principle in question. It is unlikely that you will, but it helps to be prepared.

And this approach does not require you to reveal any personal objections. Mine for instance are first based on the negative outcomes for women emphasising their sex in this way in a work context and second on my free speech views, but none of this is anyone's business but mine.

Yes, I agree we should support those who took a stand, but I do not agree that a single woman should ever do so if her job or business could be affected. To take a stand under those conditions should always be a decision made by the individual in question for her own reasons and not because of outside pressure. Because the repercussions will not be borne by those demanding she take a stance, but by her and her alone.

TheMotherofAllDilemmas · 08/08/2020 20:08

Exactly, fine with me if someone wants to declare pronouns for whatever personal reasons, but I also want my freedom not to declare them to be respected.

My boss is implying it is homophobic/transphobic not to declare them. I honestly believe that we shouldn’t be defined by our sex or sexual preferences, if we want to be truly equalitarian we may all as well declare our pronouns as it/its or invent a new pronoun that covers all preferences.

SerenityNowwwww · 08/08/2020 20:07

Me too (not in Finnish!)

Natsku · 08/08/2020 20:02

@SerenityNowwwww

Farsi - also I think Thai and Finnish. How do they cope? 😱
Any English speaking trans people would have a hard time in Finland as Finns tends to use he and she interchangeably when speaking English, I've been called both he and she in the same sentence before.
DryHeave · 08/08/2020 19:58

I presume he/she is frowned upon?

SerenityNowwwww · 08/08/2020 19:47

Exactly - why buy into this?

feelingverylazytoday · 08/08/2020 19:28

@elizaday97

Just say "she/her". It won't kill you.
Why should she?
EyesOpening · 08/08/2020 19:09

aren't there about 164 different genders at the moment? You could say you're gender fluid and are currently working your way through them all to see which one you prefer - and woe betide anyone who gets the wrong pronoun, you'll be reporting them and to the police as a hate incident

elizaday97 · 08/08/2020 19:03

Just say "she/her". It won't kill you.

OldCrone · 08/08/2020 18:15

This also flags up the difference between T and LGB. You're not required to tell everyone your sexual orientation before a meeting - can you imagine?!

But both are covered by the clause in the Yogyakarta Principles about disclosing information.

Ensure the right of all persons ordinarily to choose when, to whom and how to disclose information pertaining to their sexual orientation or gender identity, and protect all persons from arbitrary or unwanted disclosure, or threat of disclosure of such information by others.

The Yogyakarta Principles were considered to be so important by the Scottish Government that they were cited as one of the main reasons for proposing changes to the GRA.

All you need to do if you are being coerced into stating your pronouns is say that you are being forced to out yourself which goes against the Yogyakarta Principles.

EyesOpening · 08/08/2020 17:51

This also flags up the difference between T and LGB. You're not required to tell everyone your sexual orientation before a meeting - can you imagine?!

Or you could say:
my first name is Genny
“My surname is Crabby
My age is 30
My star sign is Leo
My favourite drink is tea
My favourite tipple is vodka
My sexuality is “

“Oh get on with it, we haven’t got time for all this!”

Antibles · 08/08/2020 17:45

Love the suggestions on here.

If I were genuinely worried for my job, I would go for: "If you are addressing me directly please use 'you, your,'. If you are referring to me in the third person during this Zoom call, please use a proper noun: my name."

Like Dido says, 'She is the cat's mother' - it's plain rude even if it weren't so ridiculous.

This also flags up the difference between T and LGB. You're not required to tell everyone your sexual orientation before a meeting - can you imagine?!

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