Trans adults more likely to be autistic, Times article

Igneococcus · 2020-08-08T08:13:58+00:00

[[https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d1661bf8-d8e9-11ea-8f95-6d813022b2d7?shareToken=97ad8c8db000611477b2450e544f28b2]] According to this article both sex and gender can get "assigend" at birth.

Jeeeez · 17/08/2020 19:19

I agree with you Suffrajester - the categorisation seems very autistic. And when you read pro-gender identity people's stories or books they often/all seem to struggle both socially and with describing how they feel, which could also be very autistism based.

Suffrajester · 17/08/2020 18:12

@OvaHere

One of my sons is on the spectrum (he's diagnosed). He's 16 and so far has shown no interest in gender identity politics to my knowledge. I can see where it would spring from though.

He has in the past displayed quite rigid views about gender roles which in my opinion stems from a desire to categorise everything, which I think is one way he tries to make sense of the world. It's not really that different to what we all do to some extent he's just a bit more black and white about it than the average person without an ASC.

For example a couple of years ago his younger brother had his ear pierced and chose one of those fashionable diamanté style earrings. He couldn't stop going on at him and us that this was a 'girls earring' and his brother shouldn't have picked it because he is a boy. He was quite fixated on it for a while.

I had to spend a lot of time reiterating that it didn't matter, that 'things' don't actually belong to boys or girls and all the other debunking of stereotypes. He eventually let it drop but he does have a tendency to get a bit of a fixation about these sort of things. I can completely see how he would be susceptible to the sorts of explanations groups like Mermaids churn out.

I'm convinced the autistic desire/tendency to categorise things to understand them is part of that, I remember when I was about your son's age, I would draw Venn diagrams and write set theory about which sorts of social interactions were acceptable with which sorts of people - eg you can talk about personal issues with family and close friends and your medical professionals, and you can hug family and friends, and of those you can only do interactions that involve touch if you ask first (either vocally ask or imply an ask, say, by holding your hand out and they can decide to shake it, or open your arms wide and look at then and they'll decide to hug or decline it, that sort of thing). Whenever I see these lists on places like Tumblr or Reddit of endless "genders" and "sexualities" other than hetero/homo/bi, like "moongender" or "neutrois", I think, "classic autistic behaviour!" We like labels and definitions and clarity, and although the whole gender thing looks really opaque to me, it must have some meaning or explanation to these kids. On the one hand I identify with their need to categorise and classify everything, but on the other it scares me how easily I could've fallen for it, and I wish they had support to understand the world without this gender lens on it. They could learn about different personalities or different social interactions and then learn that each person has their own likes and dislikes and behaviours, and as they get to know more people they'll get a better idea of the variety and how these categories are more of a guideline than a hard rule, and a lot of "gender" rules are rubbish and extremely narrowly culture specific anyway.

Suffrajester · 17/08/2020 17:57

Thanks NonnyMouse1337, that's very useful. Forwomen.scot have been going through Scottish educational materials, and Transgender Trend recently brought out a dossier about Stonewall and special needs education. Good call on Safe Schools Alliance, I haven't seen anything specific from them but I'll have a look and see what they have, they've done a lot of good work on the issue and on safeguarding in general.

NonnyMouse1337 · 17/08/2020 17:50

Suffrajester it might be worth gathering evidence of gender identity material that is provided to young autistic people.

There's some info in this thread -
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3909717-Autism-providing-healthy-and-positive-alternatives-to-Gender-Identity-ideology

Some parents have said how their child was sent to a gender identity seminar.
Online information also pushes gender ideology quite heavily.

Groups like Safe Schools Alliance have challenged transgender teaching materials being used in schools. Maybe they have resources on their site that might be useful in drafting letters to various autism organisations, although I don't know what else can be done.

persistentwoman · 17/08/2020 17:31

Good for you Suffrajester (love the name). I hope that your group flourishes.

Suffrajester · 17/08/2020 17:19

Here is our group. The focus is on autistics but all are welcome, we're only 1.6% of the population (though 35-50% of gender clinic referrals!) so we're very happy to have non-autistic friends too. www.facebook.com/groups/319309189461011/?ref=share

Suffrajester · 17/08/2020 17:17

@Babdoc

I was v disappointed by the article too - not at all up to the Times usual standard of journalism. Use of the wretched “cis” word, nonsense about “assigned at birth”, and completely missing the elephant in the room - that many autistic children may not be trans at all, but latch onto the gender ideology stereotypes to try and rationalise their feelings of otherness. How many autistics will end up sterilised and with damaged health, from totally inappropriate puberty blockers, hormones and surgery? As a doctor, I am appalled that clinics such as the Tavistock would even consider “affirming” these children’s self diagnosis without a thought that it could be totally wrong. I hope some high profile court cases and multi million pound damages claims may halt this juggernaut before more children are harmed. And as an autistic myself, with an autistic daughter, I am grateful we both hit puberty well before all this fad. Our “male” interests in SF, computer gaming, science, trains and maths, and our loathing of fashion, make up and pink sparkles were simply accepted as part of our personalities. Nowadays, I shudder to think what pathway we might have been directed to.

That's me, Babdoc's autistic daughter :D I'm not a mum myself but I care about other autistic kids in that sense, having been one. I've started a Facebook group called Gender Critical Autistics, where autistic people (and families and allies) can talk about this stuff. Simon Baron-Cohen's been a bit of a disappointment on the issue with his whole "male brains" ideas, but others are good: Tony Attwood's spoken out against transing autistic children, warning that it's not a "cure" for autistic traits (and many of us don't want to be cured anyway, once we learn techniques to manage the downsides of our autism we can get a lot of good out of it, there was a big autism pride movement in the late 2000s and it's a shame to see the community getting misdiagnosed and inappropriately medicalised), and Sue and Marcus Evans have done similar and left the Tavistock. At the moment I'm planning to look through and write to autism organisations about their stance on the issue: some local services have been really good about advising caution with gender obsession and pointing out that a lot of autistic traits present as gender nonconformity and shouldn't be taken as evidence of a kid's body being wrong, but others like the National Autistic Society seem to have taken the shilling, they ask about gender identity in their surveys (even for autistic people, we don't like language that isn't clearly defined) and had some webinar event that was pretty pro-TRA. I'm hoping the tide's starting to turn, but it would be useful for us to keep an eye on how this is affecting autistics, and other vulnerable groups like adopted children and LGB young people and pre-LGB kids, kids who've survived CSA, and people with comorbid body dysmorphia and EDs, all of whom seem to be disproportionately hit.

Goosefoot · 10/08/2020 15:06

Yup. And even if people are thinking of it as a psychological condition, they often are thinking of it as a discrete thing, like an aneurysm, or a broken arm.

This is a problem I think in a lot of discussions about psychological or any sort of condition or illness in the brain - in many cases, it snot clear to scientists what the causes are, what is part of "it" and what is a symptom, or a correlation. There are questions about defining the boundaries of these things pretty regularly, even ones we tend to think of as very established. Sometimes the way they are seen manifesting in other cultures can be very different too.

People typically get upset when someone suggests that any of these diagnoses are "not real" although that's not usually the real implication. But that is how people interpret it.

It makes it difficult to discuss what might be a cause or a different perspective about sets of symptoms, etc.

OldCrone · 09/08/2020 22:21

@Goosefoot

I think part of the problem with this article, and similar ones, is the assumption that "being trans" is a thing, like "being autistic" is a thing. So the idea that being autistic might make people interpret some of their experiences in such a way as to say they are trans doesn't seem obvious as an interpretation.

It would be more straightforward to say, autistic kids are more likely to suffer certain types of body dysphoria, or to be upset with the changes of puberty, or to be confused and anxious about social roles".

The problem with people saying there is a correlation between people who are trans and people who are autistic is this assumption that 'being trans' is just something that people 'are'.

In order to believe that people can be 'genuinely transgender', you first have to believe that a brain can be born into a wrongly sexed body.

If you don't believe that brains can be born into a wrongly sexed body, the only rational explanation for those who believe themselves to be 'genuinely transgender' is that they have some sort of psychological condition: either they believe that their brains have been born in a wrongly sexed body, or they are suffering from body dysphoria. Both of these indicate psychological conditions which should be treated accordingly.

A belief that 'some people are trans' requires either a belief in the 'wrong body' scenario, or an acceptance that people who are 'really trans' have a psychological condition.

SerenityNowwwww · 09/08/2020 18:00

Ah ‘the hermit’ as we call him or ‘Grrrrrrrrr’. You can only provide an open ear - advice rarely taken or appreciated in the spirit of which it was given. As long as he knows you are there for him - Is he excited about the baby though?

Rosieeeee · 09/08/2020 17:56

@SerenityNowwwww he deffo does a hermit a lot of the time, but we do have the odd good chat from time to time when he feels like it!

SignOnTheWindow · 09/08/2020 17:36

@Gwynfluff

Was also going to mention that Simon Baron Cohen thinks autism is to have a male brain. If you are female and have autism, you definitely have a female brain. Was reading some stuff by Tania Marshall who has noted that many young people with ASC can question gender and that they need really careful support.

Yeah, I don't trust Baron-Cohen in the slightest - his model of autism is the reason so many women and girls have flown under the radar or been misdiagnosed.

Some of the questions on the ASQ are absolutely fucking ridiculous.

SignOnTheWindow · 09/08/2020 17:31

@CrowdedHouseinQuarantine

- that many autistic children may not be trans at all, but latch onto the gender ideology stereotypes to try and rationalise their feelings of otherness.

agree with @Babdoc

Agree

Goosefoot · 09/08/2020 16:26

I think part of the problem with this article, and similar ones, is the assumption that "being trans" is a thing, like "being autistic" is a thing. So the idea that being autistic might make people interpret some of their experiences in such a way as to say they are trans doesn't seem obvious as an interpretation.

It would be more straightforward to say, autistic kids are more likely to suffer certain types of body dysphoria, or to be upset with the changes of puberty, or to be confused and anxious about social roles".

SerenityNowwwww · 09/08/2020 16:16

Or try to understand these rules literally. So girls like pink and dollies and hate getting dirty - well that’s not me then...therefore.... It’s a type of logic there then isn’t it?

CrowdedHouseinQuarantine · 09/08/2020 16:00

that many autistic children may not be trans at all, but latch onto the gender ideology stereotypes to try and rationalise their feelings of otherness.

agree with @Babdoc

CrowdedHouseinQuarantine · 09/08/2020 15:56

@snoodle1

I work in a support role at a university and many of the students I support have been diagnosed with ASC. Me and my colleagues have remarked to one another over the years how it is strange that an unusually high proportion of these are either transgender or thinking seriously about transitioning. These students come to us with a diagnosis of ASC from a psychiatrist and of course if they talk about transitioning we would encourage them to talk to someone with the appropriate training/qualification as it would be out of our remit to do otherwise. So this is really just an observation I am talking about and I thought it might be interesting to share.

I have noticed the same, in my limited experience

SerenityNowwwww · 09/08/2020 15:29

(Congrats on the baby - hope the heat isn’t zapping you out too much).

SerenityNowwwww · 09/08/2020 15:28

Oh no that’s terrible. Do you keep in contact though - or do they ‘do a hermit’ like mine?

Rosieeeee · 09/08/2020 15:25

I live 200 miles away and I'm due a baby next month so it's even harder not being able to go round. I had to call the police for a welfare check last month 😔

SerenityNowwwww · 09/08/2020 14:40

That must be tough - I have a sibling with issues and it’s so hard to see them going through periods of hell.

Rosieeeee · 09/08/2020 14:39

@SerenityNowwwww I'd like to say generally in himself he is happier as male, but still very much under the mental health services and frequent issues with self harm unfortunately

BobbinThreadbare123 · 09/08/2020 13:06

Telegraph had this article in yesterday's paper too. Not their usual style of rhetoric either. I also wondered why they are presenting it this way round. I have ASD and have never considered that I am 'really a man'.

SerenityNowwwww · 09/08/2020 13:02

Is your sibling happier now in the opposite sex role?

Rosieeeee · 09/08/2020 12:54

I was interested to read this, as my brother is trans (born female), and a few years ago I was thinking about it, and realised he most probably is autistic but has never been diagnosed. Suffered and treated for a lot of mental health issues throughout his life, but a lot of his behaviours whilst growing up and continuing now would suggest autism was an underlying issue.