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Original poster

Bernadine Evaristo on R4 - put gender n the blender

37 replies

partystress · 08/08/2020 01:59

Did anyone else hear this? I tried really hard to understand her argument, and agreed with much of what she said, but was completely confused by how she got to her conclusions, given the points she made, along the way, eg about blue and pink being 20th century marketing.

On a couple of occasions she talked about post-surgery, but there was an ambiguity around self-id and I was unclear whether she thinks all TWAW. I would love to hear where her thinking takes her on women’s sports.

Would be interested to hear others’ Thoughts on it.

OP posts:
nauticant · 09/08/2020 08:41

This is being repeated on Radio 4 in 10 minutes.

Original poster
partystress · 08/08/2020 11:27

I love clever women and don’t have a problem with them enjoying their own articulacy and intelligence. I would just like more responsibility around facts and more attention to the internal logic of arguments and the consequences for others if, as a person of influence, you are taken at face value.

OP posts:
BlindAssassin1 · 08/08/2020 10:57

"There might be a degree of biological conformity between females at birth but that's where it stops...."

Gosh, how gracious of her to acknowledge biology at all really Hmm

Seems very taken with her own cleverness.

Floisme · 08/08/2020 10:45

I think that being a good writer and a great storyteller doesn't automatically mean you're a deep thinker.
And vice versa.

Original poster
partystress · 08/08/2020 10:33

Nauticant - thank you for a good summary of the points that really stood out for me as unresearched. It doesn’t take much to uncover the objective facts behind offending stats or intersex conditions. And completely ignoring the impact of self-id seems bizarre at this point in time.

Nearlygranny nails my biggest issue - the cognitive dissonance. Her use of language is so wonderful that I can’t work out how it sits on such slippery thinking. Although, perhaps that is what enabled her to write about such disparate characters equally convincingly?

Whatever, I do hope the BBC will give the same platform to a GC voice very soon.

OP posts:
NearlyGranny · 08/08/2020 08:48

Of course it isn't, Sunset. If we had three sexes, every baby would need three parents - and there's be a lot fewer of them!

Intersex conditions are anomalous and distressing, and certainly nothing to do with lifestyle choice or gender expression. The way TRAs have hijacked intersex people's experience to further their cause is repellent and insensitive.

SunsetBeetch · 08/08/2020 08:40

I don't know who this woman is, but she can go to hell for saying that intersex is a third sex Angry

NearlyGranny · 08/08/2020 08:21

This was "A Point of View" right after "Any Questions", Friday at 20.45. You'll easily find it by going on the BBC Sounds app, clicking on schedules, then 4, then Friday, and scrolling down to the time.

NearlyGranny · 08/08/2020 08:17

She ended up in the usual bog. Once she'd said she taught in a university, I held my breath, listening for anything that would bring the mob down on her. She has to be woke, despite her second wave credentials, or she'd be drummed out.

I don't know how she manages the cognitive dissonance. When she praised her trans friend for being so graciously patient with her over mis-pronouning, I knew she was a lost cause.

So sad. But perhaps she will find her way after retirement when compelled speech stops being her daily fare. I'm sure if anyone had told us back in the 70s where we would be in 2020, we would have scoffed in sheer disbelief.

nauticant · 08/08/2020 07:39

Here's what I posted on the other Evaristo threads:

More Genderwang! from Evaristo on A Point of View on Radio 4:

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000lh74

It starts well with her stating that gender and sex are distinct but then she gets drawn into the same dead ends that appeal to many:

There are 3 "biological sexes": male, female, and intersex.
NATALT, so we must ignore the Yanivs that the nasty press fixate upon.
The nasty press are presenting this in the same way as "all gays are paedos" and "all blacks are muggers".
We must have a lovely chat rather than have a row. (Paraphrase: women standing up for their rights just isn't kind.)

But then she throws in the grenade of "gender isn't intrinsic". It's very easy to get cancelled with loose talk like that.

My overall impression is that she thinks very very highly of her own intelligence and wisdom. It might be better for her to rely less on her effortless mastery of the subject and actually get to understand more of what she's pointificating on.

Cwenthryth · 08/08/2020 07:33

What programme/time OP? I’d be interested to have a listen. I heard her interviewed I think on open book a while ago and she seemed a really decent, intelligent woman, although clearly believes in inherent gender identity as she was talking about featuring “non binary” people, so it would be really interesting to hear her reasoned take on the subject. It always feels like genderists are so near yet so far when they try to argue against stereotypes whilst still supporting the concept of inherent gender identity though.

BaronEssoStation · 08/08/2020 07:16

What programme?

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