Page 9 | Feminism, whats the goal?

TorkTorkBam · 08/08/2020 01:52

@UglyGlassVase

How can we ever be in a place were we aren't reliant on men?

We have the babies.

We are physically weaker.

How do we get around that? What's the goal?

I'm feeling very despondent, the more I think about it the more bleak it seems.

I found this to be quite a surprising post. I had never considered feminism as having a goal where we could say job done, let's sit back and enjoy.

For me feminism is one of those things like safeguarding, healthcare or even fitness training.

Left unchecked nature fucks us over in many areas of life. If we want to live long and live well, we have to get that lump checked out, we have to take some exercise every day, we have to be wary of CFs.

To me feminism is one of those. The physical reality of having a female body puts us at a disadvantage. Feminism tries to counter it. There is no end, no goal. Just like reaching goal weight doesn't mean you can quit the gym, down the beers and scoff several packets of jaffa cakes wrapped in streaky bacon. Annoying.

Ghoste · 08/08/2020 01:30

Everyone is reliant on everyone. Nobody can live without the support of society. Men can't, women can't.

WinterAndRoughWeather · 08/08/2020 01:12

I’m not saying the scandis have nailed it, I’m saying they’re further along.

Of course the current structures have no interest in change - that’s exactly what I said. There’s no easy fix, the only way is for feminists to get into positions of power and not give up, even though it’ll be a depressing, endless slog with many steps backwards along the way.

Yeah, it’s shit.

Original poster

UglyGlassVase · 08/08/2020 01:08

@WinterAndRoughWeather

Some of the Scandinavian countries have got much further than the U.K. on wage equality and reducing the care burden that women generally bear. They’ve achieved this through legislation - use it or lose it shared parental leave. It changes the perception of whose job it is to raise children, and evens up the time taken off work to look after babies.

I feel legislation is the only way, and in the long term it might lead to real cultural change. Men will never give up the advantages they’ve gained through exploiting women for thousands of years - why would they?

Women need to get into positions of power and change the rules from the top down. I think it’s the only way, and always has been - the protests etc aren’t enough on their own, we’ve always needed new rules for the changes to happen.

I have utterly no faith that our current power structures have any interest in meaningful change not matter what biology those sat within them have. I am astonished that anybody would. Sweden is often held up as this great example of equality but they are just generally better across the board. All the same problems still exist, single parents are usually mothers, single mothers have higher rates of poverty, children of single mothers have worse outcomes.

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Original poster

UglyGlassVase · 08/08/2020 01:01

@RomeoLikedCapuletGirls

OP I know how you feel. The way that modern society is set up means that the ones who give birth and look after children are severely disadvantaged.

The industrial revolution and the separation of work from home has put women on the back foot.

Apart from the logistics of it, I don’t think society or men will ever truly accept women as equals. Anything we gain socially is immediately resented and resisted. History is reframed to suit the cosy rationale of the status quo. The mental gymnastics is astonishing.

Thank you, your reference to pre-industrial revolution "work" is definitely something I had in mind writing this (although my knowledge is limited).

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WinterAndRoughWeather · 08/08/2020 00:59

Some of the Scandinavian countries have got much further than the U.K. on wage equality and reducing the care burden that women generally bear. They’ve achieved this through legislation - use it or lose it shared parental leave. It changes the perception of whose job it is to raise children, and evens up the time taken off work to look after babies.

I feel legislation is the only way, and in the long term it might lead to real cultural change. Men will never give up the advantages they’ve gained through exploiting women for thousands of years - why would they?

Women need to get into positions of power and change the rules from the top down. I think it’s the only way, and always has been - the protests etc aren’t enough on their own, we’ve always needed new rules for the changes to happen.

Gobb · 08/08/2020 00:55

But it's not as though giving birth is a weakness. It's an amazing strength!

Gobb · 08/08/2020 00:54

I agree. Wage equality is not enough when women take on all the caring responsibilities and that's mostly unpaid. Also, we need systems like political representation to be mother friendly so more mothers can be in government.

RomeoLikedCapuletGirls · 08/08/2020 00:52

OP I know how you feel. The way that modern society is set up means that the ones who give birth and look after children are severely disadvantaged.

The industrial revolution and the separation of work from home has put women on the back foot.

Apart from the logistics of it, I don’t think society or men will ever truly accept women as equals. Anything we gain socially is immediately resented and resisted. History is reframed to suit the cosy rationale of the status quo. The mental gymnastics is astonishing.

Original poster

UglyGlassVase · 08/08/2020 00:47

On a different level equal pay for the same work

This is one of the things I can't think of a way to fix, we are at a massive disadvantage because of pregnancy and child care. We can stop having babies but to live in the type society were wage equality is a reasonable goal we need a replacement birth rate. Plus having babies is a biological necessity or whats the point of anything anyway?

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Original poster

UglyGlassVase · 08/08/2020 00:43

@Cattiwampus

Indeed, but I feel increasingly trapped by biological reality. Every womens issue ultimately comes down to our biology and I feel like we will/have hit a brick wall where nothing else can be done.

I'll start thinking about rape or wage equality and it comes back to the same thing. Men have power over us, and not just because they built and enforce the structures we live in but because they have an innate biological advantage.

When I look at other types of systemic oppression you can usually point to a culture or a time in history where/when it doesn't exist (that isn't to say said culture or time in history doesn't have other problems) but women seem to have been universally oppressed in every society since the dawn of time.

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GrimDamnFanjo · 08/08/2020 00:41

Hmm to me it looks like the world being safer for women. On a different level equal pay for the same work.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 08/08/2020 00:38

Don’t despair, OP. These things go in cycles, and we’re in a bad place right now. But look back 100 years and you see how much progress we have made. I get a lot ofencouragement from solidarity andfriendship with other women.

Cattiwampus · 08/08/2020 00:36

I find it helpful to look back and see what’s been achieved since I was born in 1960.
Got a long way to go, but we’ve also come a long way in 60 years.

Original poster

UglyGlassVase · 08/08/2020 00:31

How? What does that actually look like?

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TinselAngel · 08/08/2020 00:30

The goal of feminism is liberation of females from patriarchy.